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Si.
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Howdy fellow prospectors :cb:

I hope your ore-cars are full & the nuggets HUGE.

" THERE'S GOLD IN THEM THERE HILLS !! " :old dude:

- - - - - - -

I've been digging around a while now, looking at ideas for a mine model.
Even with quite a large collection of photos & drawings, nothing quite jumped out & said ... EUREKA !

Then I was reminded of The Grand Central !

I was checking out Keiths exellent thread 'Modelling The Gilpin Tram' in the Freerails narrow-gauge forum...
...where I saw this photo of The Grand Central mine on Gunnell Hill.



BINGO !

I remember seeing adverts for the 'Trout Creek Engineering' kit, years ago in the Narrow Gauge & Shortline Gazette.
I know I've seen various models built over the years of this mine also.

LOVE AT FIRST SIGHT !

It's not hard to see why this lil' ol' mine has been loved by countless railroaders over the years.

Compact yet realistic size.
The 'classic' kinda small mine shape.
Nice wooden sides, for all yer board by board fans.
Funky looking sign !
The nice little outbuilding adds a certain 'something' as well.

Does the world need yet another model of The Grand Central mine ?

YOU BET IT DOES PARDNER !

All together ... A bit of a 'gold mine' !

- - - - - - -

I see that various kits of The Grand Central are still available in HO and 1/4" scale.
I am interested in making a mine in 1:35 scale.

I've looked around the W.W.W quite a bit, but can't find any drawings & plans for the structure.
I have found that Walthers say the 'Classic Miniatures' kit has a 26ft x 39ft base.

I could probably scale & draw a reasonable version of the building from that info & the photo.
I'm wondering though, if anyone has a drawing or instructions from a kit build, that they could scan & eMail me, and/or post here ?
I would be eternaly grateful !

Also, if anyone has any photos of their own builds of The Grand Central in any scale, I would love to see them posted here as well !

I'm sure that the miner 49ers of Freerails can show me the way to 'the pay dirt' !

All the best.

Cheers.

:moose:

Si.


W C Greene
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Yep, that is a cool little structure and that's why it has been "kitted" in HO & O scales. There should be someone around who has one of the kits and might want to help out with plans/drawings of the Grand Central. Si, it might be scaled from the size of the guy in the doorway and the folks up against it. Keep looking, something will turn up. I considered this one for my layout, maybe I will again....

Woodie

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I saved the picture, thanks! Making a printable kit wouldn't be too difficult. Let me look for some round tuits...

Si.
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After a nose on the net...
...I came up with this photo of a partly-built 'Trout Creek Engineering' kit for sale.



Quite helpful to see the internal framing & mine-shaft etc.

Some useful measurements can be made from the photo.

:bg:

Si.

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Nice find, thanks. I didn't know the shaft was inside the building. Lots of people call a building a 'mine' but in this case it is true.

There are several model kits on ebay now and one of them has the overall length and width of the building listed as 26 x 39 feet.

Last edited on Wed Feb 3rd, 2016 03:43 am by NevadaBlue

oztrainz
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Hi Si and all,
for a mine that small and with limited "headroom" at floor level, your winding speeds would want to be pretty slow. Any over-run on the way up is going to put the cage through the poppet wheel at the top of the headframe very quickly :w: Now where's that "Ouch!" emoticon? :bg:

I can understand why the headframe is inside the building. Wouldn't be much fun going the the top of the headframe to grease the bearings mid-winter in the Rockies if it was outside a building like just about all of the Aussie mine headframes are.

This Aussie headframe was on top of a lot bigger mine that went a lot deeper (1400' before the rope ran out) and the cage travelled a whole lot faster...

.L: All the same I wouldn't want to be lugging a drum of grease up all those stairs too often. :P

Last edited on Wed Feb 3rd, 2016 08:27 am by oztrainz

Salada
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Correct John. Some (most ?) older Western U.S. mines have the shortest winding distance between shaft collar & head-sheave that I've ever seen - & no anti-overwind protection in any of the otherwise still fairly intact mines that I've found in the deserted 'outback'.

Regards,    Michael

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Another Salada Thread Hijack !!

Si: these photos show the shaft headgear & winding sheave wheel that is normally 'hidden' under the roof cupola of U.S. style small mines.


Firstly the view from outside :




&:




And views of the inside :




(not an overwind release anywhere !!).









And what must be the shortest wind between collar & headsheave almost anywhere.

Amazingly this was wound directly off an electric winder - the Banksman (winder operator) could have only had a couple of seconds or less to disengage the winder clutch ! :





All photos by Salada.

Regards,     Michael


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Thanks for those pictures. I've always liked inclined shaft mines, very interesting critters. Kind of like a tilted railroad.
Is the first one, in the building, an inclined shaft too? I have several pieces of gear from an inclined shaft mine.
Out of curiosity, where are those mines located? The view from the last one looks familiar, but much of the west looks that way.

Si.
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Hi Michael.

Great photos ! :thumb:
That mine has def. got the Grand Central 'classic' type look about it !
Interesting to see a cut-away view sans cupola.

Here's another photo of the part-made Trout Creek Engineering kit.
Roof trusses.



Regarding the current Classic Miniatures kit as being 39' x 26'

There is in fact a small outbuilding at the back of the mine, which we haven't seen yet.
Since it is positioned right near the boiler firebox door...
...my guess is it was an addition to the main building for coal storage.

If say it was about 8' deep, this would make the main mine building say 18' deep.
I have a couple of references for this & can probably make a more accurate measurement.

The main roof is clearly at a 45deg. angle.

It is also possible that the lean-to on the right didn't go full depth, as depicted in the kit...
...but in fact only went about 1/2 depth.
I think this add-on was a small office.

It's also possible that the overall width of the mine was in fact 36' not 39'...
...more on that later.

:cool:

Si.

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Hello again Si,

This is about the best I can do for interior photos of suitable U.S. type mine mill roof rafters. Sorry I forgot to count the nail holes. I didn't check the corrugated pitch either. Nor did I measure the timber sizes. Must have been having a lazy day.






The extra vertical posts are to support the high level ore bin seen at the base of the photo, plus support for a lightweight grader/crusher you can partly see at right-centre. I took the photo from some way up in the building. Normally this would mostly be open space.

Roof pitch angles can vary considerably according to local factors. Most roof pitches I have seen in the U.S. High Desert areas have been in the 25-35 degree range but on one mine site I noted a range of from 22 to 40 deg between various adjacent buildings. 30 - 35 deg would probably a good "modeller's average" I guess.

In many mines I have seen, the "lean-to/outhouse" houses the winder (cable drum, drum brakes & brake/clutch levers etc) and often also the winding engine (prime mover in US-speak). It can also, less often, be a mess-room/office &/or tools, equipment, spare winding cable, air hose store etc.

Regards,   Michael

Photo by Salada

Last edited on Sat Feb 6th, 2016 11:52 pm by Salada

Salada
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Si;

Some typical lean-to contents. By looking at the side walls & roofs you can see that both examples, from different mines, are housed in small extensions off the main mill building.

Photo 1 :

A typical "small mine" newer type of shaft-winder, typically circa 1940's - 50's & maybe a bit later.




The Safety At Work/Elf & Safety people must have made an inspection here !!.

 - note the winding cable "safety fence trough" leading off upper left, where the cable runs through up into the main mill & on up to the headgear sheave. That guard is relatively unusual AND it looks much newer than the rest of the structure so I reckon they really did have a "visit" here.

Directly underneath the light reflection on the safety guard can be seen two vertical dark red levers. These are the combined brake-clutch controls. Taking one off usually engages the other through a simple link bar or you can operate both levers manually but never both together at the same time. As the clutch is engaged the main brake is automatically released & vice versa. Interestingly there is no "secondary" or parking brake - maybe not a requirement in the U.S. but is a requirement in many other countries. I rebuilt an almost identical winder some years ago.


Photo 2 :



  

An older piston type rock-drill air compressor with cooling water supply. No sign of what drove it, maybe a diesel ?.

You definitely wouldn't want the racket this thing makes inside the main mill ! Newer compressors are usually "screw" rather than piston but still noisy.

"Other Extensions I Have Seen" - often just rubbish & a few tables/chairs. Anything of value presumably knicked (stolen) by thievin' mine varmint.


Regards,   Michael

 

Si.
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Thanks Michael.

Just out of curiosity...
...any guess as to how much coal the small Grand Central mine might have used per day ?

The Gilpin Tram had a number of coal-cars & did do door-door delivery !

The Grand Centrals railroad-spur was lower than the mine-building (under tipple-trestle; see photo on last page).

So I guess coal might have been delivered in bags ? ...
...& manualy carried up to the back of the mine ?

:moose:

Si.

Si.
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The old 'Trout Creek Engineering' Grand Central Gold Mining Co. kit was re-released by Classic Miniatures.

Classic Miniatures #78916



Available from Walthers & dealers I think.

HO - Walthers #225-38916

1:48 - Walthers #225-78916

:bg:

Si.

Salada
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Si. wrote: Thanks Michael.

Just out of curiosity...
...any guess as to how much coal the small Grand Central mine might have used per day ?


So I guess coal might have been delivered in bags ? ...
...& manualy carried up to the back of the mine ?

:moose:Si.

Depends, relativistically speaking, which side of the Galactic Meridian you view the question from OR the eternal diatribe concerning Hawkin's String Theory and the length thereof.

Impossible to say Si : so many variable factors.

Reasonable guesstimate looking at the size of the mill/headgear - roughly (VERY roughly) 8-20 tons/week. Pumping & winding are the biggest fuel users, followed by air compressors. How was the GC drained ? - free draining, diesel/gas engine, own electric genny  or steam pump ??.

Better asking a real Gilpin brain - Keith, Duane, Woodie et al. They might have some coal shipping records ??

With all respect, Americans CARRY bags of coal ???????????????. Bulk load, almost certainly. I have seen piles of bags in old U.S. mine photos but I think they are ore parcels.

Regards,              Michael

Si.
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WANTED: DEAD OR ALIVE !

WINDOW EXPERT !

- - - - - - -

Looking at the windows in the photo of the Grand Central mine-building on the previous page...
...they are EXACTLY the same as countless other mines & buildings in Black Hawk etc.

There's NO WAY a carpenter made those windows on site.
They were probably shipped in to town on the Colorado & Southern in bulk, from a big joinery factory somewhere.
Or possibly made in town.
That's my guess.

So.
The question is:- how big is the window unit ?
&
How big are the individual panes of glass...
...I bet you could buy standard replacements in town.

It's gotta be one of the most 'bog std.' windows in the U.S.

Come on all you experts in the ancient art of American building...
...SPILL THE BEANS ! ... wadayerknow ?

Cheers.

Si.

Come on Herb.
You know the answer, I bet.
( Herb knows the thickness of Maine shingles, down to a micron ! )

:moose:

W C Greene
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I think the bags may have been ore bags. The product was carried in bags from many mines/mills. I believe the bags were sent to the smelters to be refined into ingots, etc. Well, this is just my opinion. I have seen old photos of sacks being loaded into boxcars at mills so that is where I got the idea. Duane & Keith KNOW the truth, I just know the bulls%%^&t.

Woodie

BTW-the windows are actually all made by Grandt Line...how's that for an "answer"?

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Yes, ore was shipped in bags. Coal was also bagged, but I think it was probably mostly for home and small business heating. When I moved here about 15 years ago, you could still buy bagged coal in town. Unfortunately that ended about 10 years ago. I like coal for night time heating. We use wood otherwise.
Windows... I have seen lots of dilapidated buildings at mine sites in Nevada, and nearly all appear to have been factory made things, with weighted sashes and milled parts.

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Si
You give me far more credit than I deserve, Thank you.
BTW-Glass comes, and has come for as far back as I have had any contact with it, in two thicknesses for that type fenestration (sp?) (just to impress)--single and double weight. I leave it to you, good Sir, to work out which is the thicker.
 
You forgot to ask for that bit of important information.

Woodrow--Add my name to the list of who remembers coal being delivered to residences in heavy duty canvas bags, swung over the shoulder of the truck driver,--- and a helper, I would guess  in some deliveries.

Herb

 

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Coal - I remember hearing about that black, dusty, lumpy stuff.  Way before my time. 
I thought windows came ready-assembled double pane with little plastic levelling bits ?.

Regards,           Michael

 

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You are right Ken - I've also noticed that - old mine/mill buildings sometimes have sash windows where you might have expected a simpler, site-built, frame.

Regards,             Michael

Si.
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" The windows are actually all made by Grandt Line...how's that for an "answer"? "

Hi Woodie.

Yep !
Black Hawk, the convention choice, for 19th-century UPVC window salesmen !

- - - - - - -

" Add my name to the list of who remembers coal being delivered to residences in heavy duty canvas bags, swung over the shoulder of the truck driver."

Hi Herb.

& mine !
As a kid in Kent, Ma & Pa had a 'coal shed'...
...small block built, tin roof outbuilding for it.
The coal guy was as black as the ace of spades & strong as an ox !!

- - - - - - -

" Windows... I have seen lots of dilapidated buildings at mine sites in Nevada, and nearly all appear to have been factory made things, with weighted sashes and milled parts."

Hi Ken.

Yeah ... always the same windows in a ton of old industrial photos.

Seems to always be a 3x4 pane sash window.

- - - - - - -

Thanks guys !

I am going to start to draw this out.
Been busy whittleing R.R. cars !!

Still though...
...if anyone looking in has some old kit plans they could scan & eMail...
...I would rain down :moose:s on you like you wouldn't believe !!
( sorry, no cash alternative, terms & conditions apply )

Cheers.

Si.

Another 'coffee-stirrer crime-wave' today !
Up the sleeves, like the card-dealers in Black Hawk...
...down the pants...
...in the burger-bag.

That joint never got though so many in 5 mins. before.

Wonder what I could do with them ? ...
...make a gold mine ?

oztrainz
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Hi Si,
Or perhaps some retaining walls to go with the gold mine?

Si.
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Keith posted an interesting little drawing from a late 19th-century fire-insurance map, in his 'Modeling The Gilpin Tram' thread.

You are right Woodie...
...Keith KNOWS THE TRUTH !

It's not just 'straight from the horses mouth'...
...Keith IS the horse !
( sorry Keith )

;)



I have asked Keith a couple of questions about this drawing.

But am pretty sure this is the floor-plan of the mine.

The boiler & smokestack are clearly indicated.

The Gilpin Tram track ran at the front of the mine (right side of drawing)...
...obviously where the tipper-track is seen in the pictures on the last 2 pages.

:moose:

Si.

Si.
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Keith tells me that the  IR. CH. 35'  marked on the fire insurance map ...
... means 35 foot tall iron chimney.

Nice !

The '/ ' & 'X' s marked in the spaces mean ...
... 1 story building & X denotes shingles.

So was The Grand Central originaly built without the tin roof ? ... Could be !

I guess fire-insurance guys would like EVERYTHING made out of tin !!



:cb:

Si.

Si.
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Hi Miner 49ers !

I'm not a great wiz in Photoshop or Illustrator...
...If I was, I could probably do what I'm trying to do here much easier...
...but, I tried this instead.



This is of course if the 39' width is correct.

Obviously both photos are at an oblique angle, similar but opposite by the looks of it.

Mmmm...

L:

Si.

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Looks good to me. Since we seem to have nothing but the photos, it looks like that's the plan. (pun intended) Nobody can really argue with it either.

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" Looks good to me. Since we seem to have nothing but the photos, it looks like that's the plan. (pun intended) Nobody can really argue with it either. "

Hi Ken. :wave:

I like plans nobody can really argue with !! :thumb:

They don't call me 'Stalin' Si. for no reason !! ;)

- - - - - - -

Who is the mysterious PURPLE BOB ?? !! ??? :us:



Purple Bob is a Teddy Bear who fell into a vat of blueberries...
...& ended up something like Batmans arch enemy, The Joker !

Bob makes rather spiffy printed card kits...
...& when he's not doing that...
...he makes rather spiffy die-cut windows !

PurpleBobsHobbies.co.uk ( & on eBay )

- - - - - - -

Bob actualy makes a 3x4 pane window.
But this doesn't get you the 'sash' thickness.

So I got Bobs biggest 'industrial windows'.
I will get enough 3x2 sections from one die-cut for 2 Grand Central windows.
I can make 12 windows, from a Bob 6-pack !

They look pretty good next to Wolfgang, my 'yardstick'...
...or in Wolfgangs case, '2 yardstick' !

I think the correct windows & how they look on the building is what really makes one building look different to another.
Doors help as well !!

Ta ta fa noooo ...

:moose:

Si.

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Hi miner 49er's !

A little more research has come up with this very nice looking 1:48 kit.

This was it seems, specificaly designed for the interior of the various 1:48 kits made over the years of The Grand Central Mining Co.

The model was originaly released in the early '80s by R. Hildebrand.
It is currently available from Wiseman Model Services.

If I was a 1:48er I would probably be melting down my credit-card right now !

Certain things like dozers & cranes have been good 'upscales' for me, to 1:35...
...unfortunatly I think this might be stretching things in this case.

For 1:48ers this looks like the biscuit though !!









Seeing this  kit has totaly educated me on what might be inside any small mine.

Winch.
Hoist cage.
Air blower.
Electrical generator.
Water pump.
&
Steam boiler.

:moose:

Si.

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Hi Si,
For a small shallow lead mine where the ore is dense you could probably get away with this one - you might have to space out the rungs on the side of the main hoist timbers but that would be about it.

If you think you need need more steam supply capacity, simply sleeve the boiler with a larger diameter tube.

The size of the air blower, pump and generator are probably about right. If you think you might need more steam power to spin them in a larger scale, simply sleeve sleeve the steam cylinder on the steam engine to give you a bigger diameter piston inside the cylinder. The bottom end of the steam engine is probably fine, even in 1/32-1/35 scale.

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oztrainz wrote: ... you might have to space out the rungs on the side of the main hoist timbers but that would be about it.You won't want to space out while working on the main hoist or that might be about it for you!
Maybe the old-timer who built the ladder had arthritis or short legs? :old dude:

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Earlier in this topic there was a discussion on windows

Pipopak provided this link, on Ray's station thread

http://historicaltimes.tumblr.com/image/139602805331

Look at the size of the panes on this Post Office, and imagine the care that had to be used to transport the glass from civilization to what ever God forsaken spot that the building was at. WHY? Certainly a number of smaller panes would be easier to ship (and replace when broken) This ''Look at me--I have money'' does not fit in with the rest of the building. Strange-----

Herb

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Herb, my impression of pane lower left is that it is wrinkled like a screen. Although, reflections in imperfect glass could create similar look.

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Hi Y'all,

Windows were not "pre assembled" in days gone by, like they are today. The glass panes were shipped in boxes and placed in the mullions, then glazed with putty. This was the case for many years. Leaded glass was rolled which gives it the "wavy" or wrinkled look. It was imperfect and thickness varied.

I would like to find a way to replicate leaded glass.

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What do we know about that building Herb? It may have had another life, or the post office label may be wrong, or... It appears to have been a business of some sort, so maybe post office was just part of the deal. That was fairly common too. Those windows are also the majority of the light inside on a normal day it appears too.

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A computer-generated Grand Central Gold Mining Co. :shocked:

:moose:

Si.

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It looks brand new!

Si.
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Here's the backside (_!_)



There you go Ken !

The back looks 'brand new' as well !! :shocked:

:moose:

Si.

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:old dude::moose:

Si.
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^^^
" I don't believe it, a moose in May ! "

Si.

Si.
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There seems to be a number of kits available at present on eBay.

O-scale, S-scale, HO-scale.



Could be what someone wants.

Check 'em out !

:moose:

Si.

I'm still after drawings & copies of old kit plans if anyone can help.

W C Greene
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I'll bet there ain't any 1:35 kits for El Centro Grande...

Woodie

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Howdy Woodie :cb:

I know that there's one on a dudes layout in Dallas though !

:moose:

Si.

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Howdy miner 49ers ! :old dude:


Not once, have I heard such speculation...
...but many a time, ol' timer !

Word on the street had it ...
...that the top doorframe timber had FALLEN OFF The Grand Central Gold Mining Co. !!
And was in fact just painted on !

Using the very latest CIA computer-software...
...the kid next door downloaded on his Playstation...
...& THE SECRET'S OUT !



What door frame ??

The whole doorframe is PAINTED ON !

Damn Hollywood fakery, if you ask me !

:shocked:

Si.
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W C Greene
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Si, they did it on a computer. Capt. Kirk & Spock went back in time and forgot to take their 1965 IBM with them when they left 1890. This is one of the Unknown Mysteries that we hear about sometimes.

McCoy

Salada
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Is that a "known" unknown mystery or an "unknown" unknown mystery.

Regards, from a totally unknown unknown know nothing

Si.
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Hi Miner 49ers :old dude:

Well, slight progress on this one !

I have decided to draw up my own building elevations for The Grand Central Gold Mining Co.

If anyone comes along & has some old kit plans they could eMail me, I'm still interested though.

Looking closely at the 'proportions' of one of the assembled Grand Central kits I've seen...
...although the finished structure looks for sure like the one in the vintage photo...
...it seems to my eyes, that the 'proportions' have been squished & squashed quite a bit anyhow.



I think the key thing here, is in fact, how the windows look.
As mentioned on previous pages <<< Bog standard 3x4 sash windows.
Look at pretty much ANY building around the Gilpin Tram, & chances are they'll have them.



This is the drawing from the 'Trout Creek Engineering' kit box.
It looks as though it has been pretty much 'traced' line by line, from the original vintage photograph.
The drawing however has always appeared a bit 'odd' to me though.
Basically, it's been drawn with the wrong windows !!
They ARE the windows you get in the kit, but obvoiusly NOT the prototype windows at all.



This photo shows a DIFFERENT kit, that was on eBay a while back.
Here the windows are CORRECT, but the general proportions of the building look pretty darn wrong.
Does all this really matter ?
Well, If you keep looking from one wrong example to the next, it doesn't make it that easy to do your own set of drawings.
So, I've decided to TRASH all the box drawings & kit photos...
...and work from the original vintage photograph only.

Made some enlarged gridded prints, using the ink-jet printer yesterday.
More on that later . . .

:old dude: " There's gold there I tell yer ! ... gold ... Gold ! ... GOLD !! "

Si.


Chriss H
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Si, cool project, I think I remember seeing something about that lack of door frame in the "Gilpin Railroad Era" book, I've only started reading it, but the other night I took it with me to Starbucks to enjoy a couple of down time hours, and couldn't resist just flipping through each page looking at all the amazing photos. I'll have a look see again this weekend and see if I can find that comment on the mine door, I believe they said it was for their ore unloading cars to the Gilpin Tram, the white was painted on to help in judging the door height (so as not to crack one's noggin'), makes sense, and also since people were generally a touch shorter 100 years ago, on average, that would mean that isn't a real tall building. I'd guess 6' to 6'4" for the height of that doorway.

Last edited on Fri Oct 28th, 2016 10:24 am by Chriss H

Si.
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Hi Chriss

It's funny you should say that.
I've been looking at that doorway as well.
I figured around 6'6", a U.K std. door is that height & 2'6" wide.

There's the door on the right of course, as well.
& those windows were a BOG STD. factory unit with std. panes.
I havn't been able to find out the size though.
I had guestimated maybe 8"x10" or 10"x 12" glass.
Some photographic plates were that size as well.
Not that that has anything to do with it, or does it ??

But you are right, I think, about the average height back then.
I think it WAS generaly shorter.

I have the length of the building in feet.
But ONLY because that's what 1 kit maker made it.
Probably WRONG.
The kit build above ^^^ looks 'squashed' in LENGTH.
Mmm...

I actualy just want the 'proportion' to look 'correct'.
The actual size kinda doesn't matter.

There are a ton of great Gilpin photos to base drawings on out there.
The '2-yardstick' is of course, the doorways, even if there are no figures in the pix.

Anyway.
I printed the photo onto some of the graph-paper that has feint BLUE grid markings.
Never done that before.
WOW !!
Does that make the photo easier to start drawing lines over & estimating sizes or what !!

So, printed a BROWNHOIST crane, Gilpin Caboose & a couple of others on the same paper, a few copies of each.

Progress at least.

:moose:

Si.

Salada
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Hello Si,

A word of warning if I may from half a wasted lifetime of trying to photo interpolate building and rolling stock sizes from a a doorframe or nearby 'average height' person. When estimating close up dimensions (door, window, pipe work sizes etc) it is so easy to severely underestimate parallax error. If a person of known height is standing even just a couple of feet ahead or behind an object (door frame etc.) the error is far more than you might expect. Even posing a known model of exact Standard Welsh Height, i.e. Madame Salada, she has to stand right next to the subject object to be any sort of accurate guide.

Don't be fooled by the " people were smaller then" argument. If you measure a Victorian industrial/commercial door height such as a railway station doorway, it usually won't be less than 7'6" to 8' oo". Standard modern UK/US domestic doors are 6'8" , smaller than 100 years ago !
Doorways were sometimes seen as something of a statement as to the merit/status of the business. Though this is probably not true of a remote mine, the door will still have been dimensioned to allow for carrying timber props, machine shafting etc through it.

Looking at your B&W group photo, if we guess the woman is about 5'4" sans killer heels ( my favourite, not for me except when allowed as a weekend treat, but as worn by She) then the miner chap in the doorway is at least 5'9" - 5'10" . I reckon the white outlined doorway ain't much less than 7' min. high.

My usual fee scale applies (some hope), Michael


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