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Mr Stumpy
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A brief topic on another forum got me thinking about those old structure kits for model railroading. These were cardstock and/or cardboard walls which you braced with balsa or strip wood. The card had "siding" printed on the walls and "shingles" or "roll roofing" printed on the roof.

Often door and window frames were cardstock strips which you assembled, or sometimes the frames were "punched out" of sheet cardstock. A small sheet of Cellophane was included to cut window "glass" from. "Details" sometimes had to be carved by the builder from small pieces of wood which were supplied.

These were not to be confused with what later were called "Craftsman Kits" with bunches of cast details and other parts included. Craftsman kits of that era were a box of enough "raw materials" that you cut and shaped as needed and a set of plans with dimensions. Those were REAL "craftsman kits" because you were actually "scratch building" the "kit" from plans!

White glue (Elmer's) or Ambroid Cement were the adhesives of choice, mainly because there was nothing else then. Putting Elmer's glue on heavily warped the printed card stock or cardboard, and drying time was long if you did it right anyway. Ambroid was smelly stuff that stuck to everything, including fingers and was stringy. It was similar to Walther's GOO today.

Painting these where needed, you used 410M or Floquil "Railroad Colors," both equipped with plenty of toulene to breathe and absorb.

My professional model builder Dad started me on Plasticville and then these card and balsa models at age six. It was a good way to learn and I got pretty good with them, building a Suydam six stall roundhouse as a teen.

Anyone else out there old enough to remember these?

Stumpy in Ahia :old dude:

Herb Kephart
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Ah Yes. Stumpy.

I well remember 410M. Was the only thing with ready mixed colors to use. The only alternative for a kid on a dollar a week ''allowance'' was Testors airplane dope, which, since I was into building trolleys, wasn't too much of a hardship, as many of the prototype used orange and cream colors. This was just about the time Floquil came on the market. Some of Walthers kits--they made their own kits in both O and HO back then- that had been put out right after WW2 and had sat on a dealers shelf too long had a dried up bottle of their brand enamel included, which they sold separately--but no one at the hobby shop that I infested used it. My mentor was Stewart Laurent--who had a combined hobby shop and candy store at 49th and Baltimore, in Philadelphia PA. This man had the patience to answer all my questions, bless him.

Elmers wasn't even around when I started. Woodworkers used some kind of (urea, I think ) powder, that had to be mixed with water to make a paste. Testors airplane glue was what I used. My father ate shredded wheat for breakfast every day, so the boxes were my endless supply of cardboard. I still have some models that I made back then-- terribly crude, but they haven't warped. Stewart told me that they wouldn't, if I painted both sides of the card.

Every HO layout back then had building kits made by Ideal, a Philadelphia manufacturer of model airplane kits. You could pretty much count on seeing the same buildings over and over again. The few O layouts were pretty much devoid of buildings, and were lucky to have some plaster hills to break up the table top. HO autos were made from plaster--don't remember the ''manufacturer''. A few crude ''details'' were made by Selley from some lead alloy.

HO ''layouts'' were almost exclusively built on a 4 X 8 sheet of plywood, and if they had any deviation at all from flat and level, it was to provide an opportunity for a bridge--in what was a basic figure eight track plan.
 Laurent, and a couple of other modelers, somewhat unique in that they were scratchbuilders, had a massive layout in the basement of his store. It had both passenger and freight yards, but they were only for storage of made up trains, awaiting their turn to parade around the multi level double track mainline. All hand laid brass rail, and #10 switches. Once a month it was open to customers for operation after 9 PM when the store closed. Joe Dorazio, later a custom builder of O scale locos, was building in HO back then, and would sometimes show up with a loco that he had built under commission. Very smooth running mechanisms were Joe's trademark.

There was a group that had a large O scale layout--outside third rail--in what was once the waiting room of the old B&O passenger station. It had a trolley line that wandered up around and under the railroad trackage. This was where I caught the bug to build trolleys in O scale. I have a couple cars that were built by members and lettered for the trolley line. Every Fall they would have an open house, where the public was invited.

That Kiddies, it what was called at the start of one of the popular radio (AM back then) programs the ''Thrilling Days of Yesteryear''.

Herb

pipopak
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Ah, the good old days!. We did the best possible with whatever we could lay our little paws on. Did my share of cardboard and paper also. Jose.

Lee B
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I had a tiny HO layout and no money as a teen. I found that the 'quick' brand chocolate milk mix had containers made from pressed paper and if you turned then inside-out and scribed them, they made decent (to me at the time, anyway) wood siding. I took a cheap structure kit I'd been given and cut the windows and door out of it, and made a depot structure. I'm sure I have photos of it somewhere, but that's as close as I came...

Last edited on Mon Aug 3rd, 2015 09:01 pm by Lee B

hminky
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Duco glue!

Mr Stumpy
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Obviously, building models of paper and wood with slow drying glue is a product of another age. Although there are a number of paper modelers today and the printing technology is far better, few today would take the time to build such a model, or accept the level of detail or realism of the old kits. In an era of DCC and super detailed HO locomotives costing hundreds of dollars, the old card and wood structures just don't cut it.

Another area of card and wood modeling was rolling stock kits. The floor and roof were usually wood (for house cars) with wooden blocks "inside" the car to hold it together. Sides were printed cardboard many times with details printed on as well. Better kits had stamped or cast metal ends and a variety of cast or formed metal details. Tank car "tanks" were often a dowel or cardboard tube with a printed paper "wrapper" to go around them.

Of course such modeling was not limited to model trains, but was used in airplanes, boats, and cars as well in the days before injection molding of plastic became financially feasible for the kit makers. There was far more scratch building back then, with it's own set of skills to be learned. I remember my father building a miniature english wheel to form compound curves in card stock or thin metal for model airplanes and cars and for models he did as a model maker for an architecture firm.

The key to it all was patience, having little money for hobbies, and bring willing to learn skills. Just about all of this is lacking in today's world! They'll never realize what they missed.

Stumpy in Ahia:old dude:

Herb Kephart
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''They will never realized what they missed''

For certain. But what did we fossils miss that the generations before us endured to create a model for personal enjoyment?

Herb

Lee B
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Mr Stumpy wrote:
The key to it all was patience, having little money for hobbies, and bring willing to learn skills. Just about all of this is lacking in today's world! They'll never realize what they missed.I think people realized they missed not-all-that-great models that took forever to build and really never looked right, no matter how good your skills were.
I'll never understand why people wax nostalgic about the 'good old days' of the hobby when the models weren't nearly as good, took forever to build, and were nowhere near the quality and authenticity of what you can find today.

pipopak
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I'll never understand why people wax nostalgic about the 'good old days' of the hobby when the models weren't nearly as good, took forever to build, and were nowhere near the quality and authenticity of what you can find today.

Take a piece of cereal box cardboard, cut yourself some wood strips from a balsa sheet, get some white glue and, using razors, a steel ruler and sandpaper make the best replica of something you can achieve because that model is totally unavailable. Time is irrelevant, let it take as much as you want/need. Once you finish it let us know how it feels. Jose.

pipopak
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Mr Stumpy:
this is a paper model:
http://i-am-modelist.com/2015/03/17/teak-sleeping-car/
but I agree, this is an almost forgotten art within model railroaders. Jose.

Herb Kephart
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Be sure to click on Paper models on the right hand side--63! pages of great modeling. Seems to be a big thing in Europe.

Herb

Bernd
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Herb Kephart wrote: Be sure to click on Paper models on the right hand side--63! pages of great modeling. Seems to be a big thing in Europe.

Herb


Ah Herb, isn't that supposed to be "left hand" side. L:

And there we have it folks. Better looking models than some of the plastic ones I've seen.

Bernd

Herb Kephart
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Gee, I don't know Bernd

I clicked om ''categories'' on the left, which brought me to a page with 3 columns. Top of the right hand column was ''paper''. Then again I am running Windows 2 ½

I think

Herb

pipopak
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Well, to further confuse things, I clicked "categories" at top left and "paper" showed up at top right. 63 pages of them. But I use LINUX THE GREAT, so my mileage certainly varies :<;). Jose official supplier of fun and controversy.

Mr Stumpy
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You missed the point entirely. Yes, today's stuff is far more accurate and ready to run. Kits are not what they used to be as far as demanding skills, and the quality is better, but the price paid is far higher.

Also missing is creativity and imagination because everything is laid out neatly for you to do or you buy it R-T-R. You are limited to what is available because most modern day model railroaders are missing the skills we old guys developed. Today's model railroad is often built with a checkbook, while in the old days it was built with time.

And then, there is the satisfaction of actually building something on your own. Sometimes COMPLETELY on your own and often using what is now known as "available materials" modeling. We knew it as scrounging materials and scratch building.

Is one era better than the other? Probably not, they are too different to compare accurately. But for we "oldsters" it was the best of times, so just let us "wax nostalgic" from time to time.[toast]

Stumpy in Ahia:old dude:

Bernd
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Mr. Stumpy - AMEN

Truer words where never spoken.

Bernd

Bernd
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Herb Kephart wrote: Gee, I don't know Bernd

I clicked om ''categories'' on the left, which brought me to a page with 3 columns. Top of the right hand column was ''paper''. Then again I am running Windows 2 ½

I think

Herb


Here's what appears on my screen.



Must be that windows 2.5. :us: :bg:

Bernd

pipopak
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Click "categories", then you will see:


then click "paper" at upper right:


And then go explore the rest. Jose.

Bernd
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Jose,

I guess there's a couple of ways to arrive at that other web page. When you click "paper" under the  "Posted by Tanya" you get there too. :)

Bernd

pipopak
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... all ways lead to Rome.... Jose.

oztrainz
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All roads might not lead to Rome if someone forgets to take the left at Alberquerque? :bg:

Herb Kephart
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No Stumpy, I don't think that the point is lost. The people that built those models from paper must have gotten as much satisfaction, and pride as we did/do. We used what we had at hand, they probably bought the paper. But the pride is the real point, I think. Today, as you said, model railroading has changed to a ''buy it'' hobby, but there can be a number reasons for this. Advancing age, with it's diminishing eyesight is just one. Wanting to get something presentable, to justify the hobby to family infidels, is another.

But-no one is stopping you and I, and others of the same ilk from making models from old cereal boxes stuck together with hide glue if we wish (except where would you get hide glue now--but I'm sure that Jose will find a site) Yes, the hobby has undergone a terrific transformation in the 67 years since I started, but I still do some the things the old way-the slow way- the satisfying to me way.

The whole thing about a hobby, any hobby, is satisfaction, and respite from the world that surrounds you. You can escape from your daily life for a short time, doing something for yourself, in a constantly more demanding world. Yes we ''scrounged'' materials, and ''made do''. Today's model railroaders sometimes have to scrounge money to buy a loco that they want, and have to make do with rolling stock lettered for the wrong prototype railroad. We can brag about how much time we had invested building. They can have the satisfaction of acquisition. But we are all in the same hobby, and for the same basic reasons.

Herb

pipopak
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(except where would you get hide glue now--but I'm sure that Jose will find a site)

That will be all, Master?:

http://www.rockler.com/titebondreg-liquid-hide-glue-choose-size?sid=AF078

Jose.

Mr Stumpy
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Aarrgghhhh...We used this kind of stuff in the woodworking shop way back in high school. It was kept hot in a pot and applied with a brush to glue wood sections together using dowels for alignment. About as much fun as Walther's GOO, except GOO smells better.

Or am I thinking of the glue made from horse hoofs? As in "This nag is headed for the glue factory." (Must have been a "fun" place to work.):shocked:

I built a Mahogany coffee table that Mom had in the living room up until a few years ago using that nasty glue and got a pretty good grade on it. There were other "cabinetry" projects as well, as you had to do one for every grading period. One was a cedar chest damn near as big as a coffin that took what seemed like gallons of that yucky glue.

The next year I took metalworking and stuck things together with an arc welder.

Stumpy in Ahia:old dude:

pipopak
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We used this kind of stuff in the woodworking shop way back in high school

... we were actually taught useful stuff back then... Jose.

Mr Stumpy
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True enough, Jose. I went on to race Stock Cars and then build hot rods making a lot of use of some of the shop classes I had. Today they are gone, limited only to technical schools as public schools continue to cut back around here.

An even worse mistake is that my state no longer requires the teaching of history or geography. But that's a whole other discussion with political implications.

I'm just an old guy, but still feel that once you learn something, including a skill, you own that for life. Unlike so many other things, nobody can take that away from you.

Stumpy in Ahia:old dude:

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Not only do I remember those card stock kits but I am very active with todays cardstock models if anyone would like to try there habd at the new generation of card stock pm me and I will gladly supply you with something to start with

Kitbash0n30
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Browse around here for a pretty quick episode of mind blown http://www.papermodelers.com/

W C Greene
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Oh yes, I remember those olden times. I didn't build card stock models preferring to build with balsa and white pine which my grandpa cut on his band saw. Duco, ambroid, and Elmer's worked and I even used "hide glue" which was always "cooking" in grandpa's shop. Nasty stuff! I got into HOn3 in the late 50's and there was NO flex track, car kits were boxes of sticks, but PFM and Ken Kidder had brass locos...the Kidder 0-4-0 was $6.95 and the PFM 2-6-0 was $34.95. Lots of dinero back then. These are the "good old days" but nobody seems to build anything now...maybe I am a dinosaur after all.
Woodie

Bernd
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W C Greene wrote:
These are the "good old days" but nobody seems to build anything now...maybe I am a dinosaur after all.
Woodie


Hey I resemble that remark. :P

I still scratchbuild.

Bernd

Herb Kephart
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ME 2


Herb

Mr Stumpy
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Yeah, I'm a Stumpisaurus.

Stumpy in Ahia:old dude:

Kitbash0n30
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W C Greene wrote: These are the "good old days" but nobody seems to build anything now...maybe I am a dinosaur after all.
Woodie
I'm still building with wood and cardboard - have five G scale cars going from balsa, basswood, cardboard, with bits of plastic and metal as appropriate. 4 boxcars, 2 round roof & round end interurban style, 2 square end with round roof, and a flat, for my freelance road.




Herb Kephart
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A true believer, and craftsman!

Herb

Mr Stumpy
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Good Show! Looks like my workbench...only neater!:bg:

Stumpy in Ahia:old dude:

Rick S
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I'm working on a cardstock sawmill for the Red Creek & Ramsay Springs.
Rick

Attachment: 20170214_214612.jpg (Downloaded 37 times)

Kitbash0n30
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Shaping up nicely. I'm happy to live in an age where so many materials options and techniques are available to use as desired and/or as best suits the purpose.

Helmut
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here's some stuff to spur you up. All structures made of cardstock, of course.

Si.
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I saw this one the other day.

Looks pretty good & a low rent deal !

:moose:

Si.
.

Attachment: Low-relief-1930s-factory-preview-ebay.jpg (Downloaded 28 times)

pipopak
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On another tab at David Easton's page there is a very nice tutorial about modeling techniques:
https://parabuild.blogspot.de/p/a-model-making-tutorial.html
Jose.

Rick S
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Helmut,
Thanks for the link.  I have read several of David Easton's tutorials and he is insanely talented. 
In his Model Making Tutorial on his site, he says his main building material is polystyrene sheet.  I think "cardstock" means something different in Europe - here it's just thick paper. I seem to recall reading somewhere that what Brits call "cardstock" we call "binder board" - the stuff used to make hardcover books.
The sawmill I am working on is basically two thicknesses of 100-pound paper, so the walls are about .03" thick.
Rick

Kitbash0n30
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I might have said this on a previous page: website well worth looking at is http://www.papermodelers.com/
They have this section,
http://www.papermodelers.com/forum/railway-related-builds/

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I referred to the pictures and the link to Pendon Museum - "Pendon Parva" is entirely built of cardstock ( bristol board and such ).  I had the pleasure of talking it over with the late Roye England and also saw  J. Ahern's " Madder Valley" in operation.

Last edited on Wed Feb 15th, 2017 11:27 pm by Helmut

Lee B
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The issues I see with cardstock is that though surface texture issues have finally been addressed on the British ones I see in their magazines (some of those are amazing looking), how thick does it have to be before warping isn’t a problem?
Many layouts are in places where heat, cold and humidity play their games with a layout. With plastic of wood structures (to a lesser degree), that isn’t much of an issue. But even thick stock like Bristol or Illustration boards can warp over time. I’ve seen several people print out computer-generated structures onto cardstock, which in some cases is only as thick as two sheets of normal paper bonded together. No way that’s going to maintain right angles for very long.
With the great leaps in laser work on wood, I don’t think I’d deal much with paper structures, except as a temporary representation for the ‘real’ structure that’s being built elsewhere.

Rick S
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Lee B wrote: I don’t think I’d deal much with paper structures, except as a temporary representation for the ‘real’ structure that’s being built elsewhere.

Lee,
That is why this one is being built.  I want to see not only how it will fit on the layout, but how it's going to interact visually and spatially with other objects before I build it from basswood.
As far as warpage goes, I live on a river in North Central Texas.  It gets pretty humid here, and the cardstock doesn't warp while sitting in the printer.  Maybe over a longer period of time, but for the anticipated lifespan of this structure, it should be fine.
I used cardstock for elements of the Santa Claus house I built for the Christmas layout. Most of the cardstock in that structure is reinforced with basswood or foam core board since I wanted it to last longer than one Christmas season.
Rick

Si.
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Spraying with a light amount of Testors 'Dullcote' kinda seals paper/card like an artists 'fixative'.


It can also act as a 'key' for further weathering, also good for a 'key' on plastic rolling stock.


It can also deal with slight paper 'sheen', or any mildly glossy inks.


:moose:


Si.

Lee B
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Si. wrote: Spraying with a light amount of Testors 'Dullcote' kinda seals paper/card like an artists 'fixative'.


It can also act as a 'key' for further weathering, also good for a 'key' on plastic rolling stock.


It can also deal with slight paper 'sheen', or any mildly glossy inks.



Si.


True, but it can also blur the ink from cheaper printers in some cases.

William M
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Still going strong in the UK after years and years!:P
http://www.newmodellersshop.co.uk/superquick.htm

Last edited on Thu Feb 16th, 2017 03:27 pm by William M

Si.
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Ah ... Fond memories of gluing together my OO Superquick goods shed, circa early '70s


:bg:


Si.

Rick S
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This plan came from ScaleModelPlans.com

There is a link on his site to a free pole shed plan.

Rick

Larry G
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How long can I expect my structures built with foam core and a overlay of cardboard to last? 

Do I need to use reinforcement on the inside of my structures?

I live in a semi-arid part of the U.S. with lower dew points.

Larry Gant


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If you spray your structures with a protective coating like Krylon clear or dull coat, 
this will not only help against warping but also help the inks from fading. 

I have had paper structures for over 5 years without a problem.


Si.
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Yeah ... Spraying with eg. 'Dullcote' ... NOT saturating...


...dry as it hits the target, kinda thing, is a gooodun ...


:moose:

Si.

Kyle Moore
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There are several companies that sell designs that one could print. 
Just buy the design and save it to your PC and print as many as you need out. 

In an ironic twist of fate I don't own a printer, 
and now I am in the market because of these companies and the fact I do try to penny pinch when I can so I can use the money elsewhere.

On the bright side I at least won't need to use the library for important documents any more once I get that printer.



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