Freerails > Model Railroad Forums > Traction & Electrified Railroads > ZERO Clearance Trolley Line - Lisbon City Center |
Freerails > Model Railroad Forums > Traction & Electrified Railroads > ZERO Clearance Trolley Line - Lisbon City Center |
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pipopak Moderator 
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Somewhere in Lisbon. Be VERY careful when stepping out of your home!: http://photorator.com/photos/images/lisbon--37795.jpg Jose. Attachment: lisbon--37795.jpg (Downloaded 71 times) |
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JawboneFlats Registered 
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Now that's door to door service! |
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jtrain Registered 
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Between that photo and what Michael has been posting about two weeks ago, Lisbon seems to be a great place to model, although I bet I couldn't model two blocks a year for the amount of details needed. I think I've asked this before, but I forgot the answer, what's the gauge of the track? It looks like meter gauge, and I think Michael had said it was a little more than that. --James |
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Milocomarty Registered 
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It's 3 foot gauge or 900mm. Have elevations up to 14% over there.. |
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Milocomarty Registered
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http://home.fotocommunity.de/daniel_ch/index.php?id=1028048&d=21869471 Last edited on Sun Apr 6th, 2014 10:33 am by Milocomarty |
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pipopak Moderator
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Wow!. This is something I never saw before!. Jose. |
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Herb Kephart Moderator 
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I see that they have graffiti maggots over there also. Years ago, a SEPTA security guard caught one ''tagging'' a station in the Philadelphia subway. The guard pulled the maggot's pants down, and emptied the spray can on the maggot's crotch. Shame that it wasn't a can of oven cleaner. Herb |
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jtrain Registered
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Ouch! --James  |
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Salada Registered 
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Gauge is 900 mm or 2'.11 7/16" i.e. nominal 3' gauge. I'm NOT a rivet counter but there is something a little odd about that photo : - it looks like the tram number is 28 but it is not on the normal 28 Route (I can't quite read the destination board) I travelled the whole 28 route several times only a couple of months ago & there's nowhere quite like that; - it looks slightly different to the normal Lisbon trams; - the building style is slightly different to the Lisbon old quarter. I'm probably mistaken but it might be Oporto, not Lisbon. The building style is fairly Iberian (i.e. Spain or Portugal). Possibly even South America somewhere ??. Regards Michael |
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Bill Fornshell Registered 
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You are right it is on an incline. Not on a tram line. Last edited on Mon Apr 7th, 2014 05:27 am by Bill Fornshell |
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Ray Dunakin Registered
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Cool little incline tram, too bad it's been trashed by &#@ taggers. |
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Bill Fornshell Registered
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The photo on page one of this thread is from what they call Route 28: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPxos2UT8EU This short video is about the incline: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-a4F_x8WwY Last edited on Mon Apr 7th, 2014 05:33 am by Bill Fornshell |
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Helmut Registered 
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It's surprising how well-mannered car drivers and pedestrians behave in tight spots. I have my almost daily comparison in Istanbul near Sirkeci Station, where everybody seems to be concerned about delaying the trams whenever they attempt to pass. |
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Herb Kephart Moderator
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Great videos, Bill--thanks! OK now you guys who figure that 'lectric overhead is the way to go for the real thing, what did you notice about the incline cars? Yes they had two pantographs--most likely they are three phase power, and yes they have an extra, offset rail, which is probably an extra form of braking (shoe jams into slot). But there is something else, VERY unusual! Look again at the second video--particularly 1:29 to 1:35 The pantographs have wheels! Wonder how they can keep them on the wire, because the pantographs can't move sideways (too much mass for the wire to move), almost impossible that the wire is hung with enough accuracy to line up with the wheel in a curve, and if the wheels slide sideways on the horizontal top bar, how do they maneuver them to align with the wire when putting the pan up? Conspiring minds want to know! Herb |
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Helmut Registered
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@Herb Have a look here. The first scene shows the incline and how the trolleys move sideways along their axle... Third rail? Ever heard of Frisco cable tram? |
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Salada Registered
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Thanks for your YouTube link Bill; your first link is definitely of Route 28. Lisbon has three relatively unusual public transport systems : electric NG trams, ascensores & elevadores. For ascensore, read elevator (for our US friends), see photo below :  - an ascensore is a vertical, electrically hoisted passenger car giving access to the streets higher up. An elevadore is perhaps more widely known as a funicular, as seen on Bill's video links. Funiculars are always cable hauled. I am not entirely certain but I believe the Lisbon funiculars are standard funiculars i.e. cable hauled via the "slot" between the rails (it is not a 3rd rail). Herb: I'm sure they are not 3 phase (the traction system is cable) but why do they need a 2 pole 'pantograph' ? I don't know. Communication with the control/winding cabin crew ?. Non si sa as they say. Regards Michael ps: I would call the SF system a cable hauled tram (US streetcar ?) - some is steep eneough to be similar to a funicular but other sections are fairly level. The essential difference is that the SF system works via an endless, constantly running, cable with each car having a cable grabber, or clutch. A funicula is more 'self-balancing'. The two cars are attached to either end of a length of haulage cable that runs between them via a driving wheel/brake/traction motor at the summit. As one car descends it helps to raise the ascending car - very "green" & energy efficient, long before anyone invented "global warming". |
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Helmut Registered
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@Michael Shame on me, yes the Lavra system is a funicular with two balanced cars. Interesting to note that in 1875 they demonstrated this by building an underground line in Istanbul ( my 2nd hometown ), also powered by two steam winders at first. This set off a full-fledged funicular rage in all the European capitals. Of course you can run 3-phase AC operation with two wires and the rails as ground. FS ( You should know well, eh? ) had such a system in operation from 1902 -1976. |
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Salada Registered
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Hello Helmut, Were FS the only people to try the 2 pole wires & ground 3 phase ?. I don't know of anywhere else. For our US friends, FS = Ferrovie dello Stato (Italian State Railways). Regards Michael |
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Herb Kephart Moderator
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OK then, the two overhead wires must be power for car lighting. Realize now that those little wheels running rather loose on a small diameter shaft would cause a spectacular show with traction current. Herb |
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Kitbash0n30 Registered 
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The things ya learn around here! |
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Helmut Registered
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@Herb No, the pantographs supply traction power to AFAIK one 25hp formerly 3-phase Motor. Traction really is by adhesion. Now the trick is that they use the cable to balance the weight of the two cars ( one up, one down ), so the actual tractive force need not be that high. Correction: The power of all trams is 600V DC now. Seems that they use the second wire as the return line instead of the rails. |
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Herb Kephart Moderator
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Helmut I know people like that. They just aren't happy until they get something so complicated that even they can't understand it anymore. Herb |
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Salada Registered
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Herb: They also changed gauge !! The Lisbon system started out as Standard Gauge, then swapped to NG !! Looks like Helmut finally got it sorted out ! Regards Michael |
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Si. Moderator 
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Just HAD to comment on this 'golden oldie' Thread of Joses !  What an appealing scene for the 'space challenged' modeller !  This could work out OK for an urban scene ... ... but even an industrial or logging style layout could have & look good with some 'unusual' CLOSE clearances. There IS ! a prototype for EVERYTHING !   Si. |
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pipopak Moderator
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... when trolleys zip by your window... Jose. |
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Lee B Registered 
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I can't believe I JUST noticed this thread. My wife and I rode these in May on our European trip, saw all the spots that have been shown here. It was the closest I'll ever get to feeling like I was a tiny person on someone's layout. Truly impossible-looking grades, clearances that wouldn't allow for a supermodel not to get sideswiped along a wall. I wouldn't have believed it had I not seen it myself.  This is the one we rode:  |
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