| Moderated by: ebtm3 | ||
| Author | Post | |||||||||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
|
Trebor Moderator 
|
I was in Radio Shack the other day and saw some 1/32 RC sports cars for $15.00. I thought they might be good for an RC tutorial. Then I saw an RC Hummer by the same company for $5.00. It was a discontinued model. That did it. The tutorial was on. First thing I did was to take it all apart. Here is the chassis with the receiver and the motor. The battery compartment is built in right below the board.  These are the major components  I sniped off the wires for the steering and cut the wires to the motor leaving them about an inch long. Originally, I was going to remove the board and connect it to a separate battery holder but since the holder was already in place and everything was connected, I just trimmed the chassis. All I had to do was connect the two wires to the motor.  Here’s another picture showing the transmitter.  Here’s the best part. The original car did not have variable speed. I just went FAST but it ran on 2 AA batteries so it only had about 3 volts. Well, 3 volts lets this little 0-4-0 lope along at a nice crawl. Nothing fancy, nothing complicated… just connect a few wires and GO. It took longer to write this article than to put it all together. The only way this would be easier is if Woodie and I came to your house and did it for you. |
|||||||||
|
Paladin Administrator 
|
Great Bob, when are you coming to my house |
|||||||||
|
ytter_man Member 
|
I have that exact same hummer but i thought i might get away with using a smaller (read:too small, too weak) battery from a large Air Hogs helicopter. The post is probably here in the RC subforum about what i tried. I wish my stuff was big enough to hold them batteries :( Glad you got it to work though!  |
|||||||||
|
W C Greene Member 
|
As ya'll can see-ANYTHING is possible! The little Air Hogs have a tiny 3.7 volt Li-Poly battery that HAS to be recharged from the model's transmitter. Don't think you can charge this with anything...you just might have a nuclear meltdown of miniature proportions! What Bob shows is affordable for anyone. NIKKO has gone "belly up" so you may be able to find these little cars for little dinero. Something you might try for some applications is to use a 3 volt Lithium Ion camera battery (CR-2) for power. These are pretty small and I used them when I got into r/c. Believe it or not...well it's true...one of these ran my old On30 Model T railtruck for almost 1 YEAR!!! Some of the Radio Shack cars have a 5 step proportional receiver so running most locos is easy & cheap. Right now, the batteries are the biggest space eater and money layout, but with a little searching, cheaper alternatives can be found. Don't forget animations also-I have used these little boards for things like rotary car dump control, conveyors, and I have one in my car hoist. All that stuff is run off AA alkaline batteries. I will tell you that installing this r/c stuff is EASIER than installing dcc and when it comes to reading about CV's and all that,-throw out the stinkin' book. And yes, everyone who runs dc or dcc now can have their very own r/c loco which can run on the same track at the same time with NO hassle. Just remember that when the "traditional" control has a short, open circuit, or the wheels & track needs cleaning-your little r/c loco will run on happily, saving your operation. Woodie-the real Outlaw troublemaker |
|||||||||
|
Trebor Moderator
|
You’re right Yetter-man, those batteries are pretty big but in On30 you can easily use a doodlebug or a Gnomy trolley. I have something else in mind. More later… time for the Cowboys to play. The interesting thing is that the car and the porter hustler have the exact same motor so there wasn't any reason that it wouldn't work. Lucky find on my part. Last edited on Sun Sep 21st, 2008 11:59 pm by Trebor |
|||||||||
|
Trebor Moderator
|
I got started on some molds for this creature. Last edited on Wed Oct 1st, 2008 12:35 pm by Trebor |
|||||||||
|
ebtm3 Moderator 
|
Aw Bob- yer teasin us! At least show us the cavity! Herbie  |
|||||||||
|
DW Member 
|
Great work Bob. Here is my setup that cost $6 plus change. I picked up a ZipZap RC car at a Radio Shack not long ago. I stripped it down to extract the RC board. Not being an expert on electronics I was finally able to figure out what to connect to get my newly purchased AristoCraft motor block, 4AA battery pack and the RC board working together. Other than the fact that I don't have variable speed, I'm pleased with the fact that I figured out how to get forward and reverse working.   The transmitter is a small unit when compared to the 4AA battery pack. The top part has a built in cradle that the ZipZap attaches to so that it can charge the small 2.4v NiMh battery (not being used). I'm thinking that I can strip it down and fab a smaller unit that only uses the left side control (forward and reverse) and antenna. The right side control is for steering. Or I can leave the transmitter as is and maybe eventually have the steering control work the future critter engineer's head... having it turn from side to side using the ZipZap's micro motor. :Hmm:  Test run on YouTube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H81LgsCZFZs edit: I dismantled the transmitter. The pc board inside runs the length of the case so it doesn't look like making a smaller unit is possible. Guess I'd use the other control to animate the engineer somehow. Last edited on Wed Oct 1st, 2008 06:37 pm by DW |
|||||||||
|
Trebor Moderator
|
Now that's what we're talkin' about. |
|||||||||
|
DW Member
|
Trebor wrote: Now that's what we're talkin' about. Here is a quick writeup. Had to break out my Pentax DSLR to get some close up shots for this. ;D The first picture is an overhead of the Radio Shack ZipZap with the bodyshell removed. I picked up two of these for $6 each on clearance. Of the six wires on the pc board, you'll only use four - the white negative (barely visible at bottom of photo), the red positive beside it, the grey wire at the upper right and the tan wire just below it. The tan wire has a diode attached that I left intact on the wire.  The two remaining wires are a black and light red wire that actually run to lights on the ZipZaps that work when going forward. These wires could be hooked up into the headlight of a loco for lighting. In the second photo everything is wired. The white negative is attached to the black wire from the battery pack. The red positive goes to a small on/off switch salvaged from an electric razor I stole from my wife Brenda. The circuit continues when attached to the red wire from the battery pack. The grey wire was attached to the blue wire of the Aristo power block. The tan wire with the small diode was attached to the green wire. I don't think it matters which is wired to which to be honest. This was how I wired it and it worked so I left well enough alone.  None of my connections are permanent at the moment... just twisted together since I was only experimenting. Eventually the ESC/receiver from a Team Losi stadium truck will be used for power management of my eventual critter build. The Losi ESC/receiver will provide speed control and is about the same size as the ZipZap pc board. I mention my plans on my webpage: http://dweyrich.googlepages.com/dogbonewestern2 |
|||||||||
|
W C Greene Member
|
WAY TO GO-DW...looks like you are totally wireless crazy! As I recall, there are some Shack Zip Zap cars that have a "proportional" speed, something with 5 steps forward and 5 in reverse. Careful looking may yield some of these also. Don't you have a li-po battery? The board could be set on top of the battery (with some insulation in between) to make a compact unit. The board should run on 7.4 volts and with a hunky 3.7 single cell, the speed with a non proportional throttle might be "just right". I am still amazed that the 7/8 guys (with the exception of you) resist using r/c. They use nice batteries, so why not use some form of control rather than just an on/off switch? Could be that most just want to sit, sip, and watch #2 go round & round? By the way, in the new Garden Railroading, there's an article about some 7/8 slate cars that look very cool. MY OPINION-when I first asked the question-"is there anybody else using r/c in their trains?", I had no idea of the interest and experimentation that was being done as I wrote those words. I gotta tell ya'll, the response to this has really made me feel that my opinion is worth something! THANKS GUYS, and if sometimes I get a little carried away, just blame Mudge, or Herbie, or maybe that dadgum Trebor for giving me the impetus to carry on. Keep it up, someday I may be able to run my locos across the floor like DW...heck, I have been running locos that way for maybe 7 years already! Boudreaux |
|||||||||
|
Trebor Moderator
|
ebtm3 wrote: Aw Bob- yer teasin us! I ran into a problem with the mold material I used. It was old and had been open for awhile. It started to thicken almost immediately and by the time I poured the last mold (the side frame) it was too thick to pour so I just let it glop in. The mold had a lot of air pockets. I have some new material so I’ll just try again. Everything else came out OK.  |
|||||||||
|
Trebor Moderator
|
DW wrote:
Dwayne, If the original battery is 2.4 volts, why not try it with just 2 AA batteries. That would slow it down some. I like the way yours is running across the floor. Mine is running across my desk. |
|||||||||
|
DW Member
|
@ Bob, I tried it with 2AA's and it ran much slower as expected. The speed would work great for a smaller scale. It's not bad for 7/8ths if the object was to do some switching only. Less ideal for running down a mainline any distance. The nice thing about 7/8ths scale is that finding space for the batteries is easier than in smaller scales, even on a critter. Heck, I don't even have rail yet... just run it across the floor. Not to sound too crass... but screw DC & DCC.  RC is where it's at.  @ Woodie, the critter I'm going to build will be using Li-Po's. I haven't managed to pick one up yet as free time is at a premium when I come home off of the road. Lots of honey-do's that need to be taken care of first. |
|||||||||
|
ebtm3 Moderator
|
Dwayne You wrote- Lots of honey-do's that need to be taken care of first. Gotta learn about priorities! Tell her guy stuff comes first! Don't forget to duck! Henpecked Herb |
|||||||||
|
DW Member
|
Herb, I thought we were friends. :boohoo Your advice would only lead to me being hurt. Avoiding bodily injury has always been a top priority for me.  |
|||||||||
|
W C Greene Member
|
DW-if you think your wife can get you, just try charging one of those Li-Poly batteries incorrectly! The stinkin' things become a miniature thermo nuclear explosion, I think you may fare better with your wife...even if she has a rolling pin with which to hit you! Boudreaux-Herbie's friend... PS-you might try your motor block with a 3.7 volt one cell li-po, if it goes too fast with 4 AAA's and too slow with 2 AAA's...like Goldilocks said "3.7 is just right!" Last edited on Fri Oct 3rd, 2008 01:41 am by W C Greene |
|||||||||
|
DW Member
|
Thanks for the advice Woodie. When it is all said and done the Losi ESC/receiver that I currently have standing in the wings will allow for actual speed control without having to manipulate the battery setup. I think if I had a regular job and was home every night I could make more rapid progress on the RC front. But alas, living in a truck for 2-3 weeks with only 2-3 days at home filled with honey-dos before doing it all over again is a limiting factor for me. :boohoo Last edited on Fri Oct 3rd, 2008 02:04 am by DW |
|||||||||
|
Trebor Moderator
|
I recast the side frame (top). Then I took some out of the middle to line up the wheels and added some to the ends and then cast that (middle and bottom) and a few detail pieces for the ends. This is gonna get good. ILast edited on Sun Oct 5th, 2008 01:38 am by Trebor |
|||||||||
|
Trebor Moderator
|
 |
|||||||||
|
W C Greene Member
|
EXCELLENT-A-MUNDO BOB...great start on a new critter! I can't wait to see this un'... Woodrow |
|||||||||
|
Trebor Moderator
|
Woodie, you better take another look. I put something there just for you. |
|||||||||
|
W C Greene Member
|
Bob-do I see L & P coupler pockets?? Yep, that's for me! Yawsah!! welcome to the "dark side"... Woodrow Last edited on Sun Oct 5th, 2008 09:22 pm by |
|||||||||
|
DW Member
|
I noticed the link and pin sockets. I was looking for something RC related. |
|||||||||
|
Trebor Moderator
|
I originally had Kadee couplers with standard gear boxes. I added tabs to the back of the L&P coupler pockets so I could use either set. |
|||||||||
|
Trebor Moderator
|
This is still pretty rough but I'm making a little progress. |
|||||||||
|
DW Member
|
Looking good Bob.  |
|||||||||
|
Trebor Moderator
|
  |
|||||||||
|
W C Greene Member
|
Bob-as always, too cool for school! The new motor home is ready to replace the old one & then the Mogollon will ride again. Yahooooo! I will write when the dust settles. Man, I love the new critter, beautiful... Woodrow |
|||||||||
|
Paladin Administrator
|
Bob:- I tips me lid to ya. I have been following your progress and it just keeps getting better and better. Don |
|||||||||
|
Trebor Moderator
|
 I'm not completly satisified with the paint job so I'll probably redo it but for now I'm gonna wire it up and run this sucker. Last edited on Sun Oct 12th, 2008 11:57 pm by Trebor |
|||||||||
|
ebtm3 Moderator
|
A-OK Bob! Herbie |
|||||||||
|
W C Greene Member
|
Bob-I hope you are going to omit the pesky and unneeded wheel wiper wiring mess when you get this un' running. A fine job indeed and I will be proud to own this locomotive (or any other bits of your work) that you may send my way. See ya later... Boudreaux |
|||||||||
|
Trebor Moderator
|
The wheel wiper stuff is long gone.. I toned the whole thing down. The radiator leaks. |
|||||||||
|
Sullivan Member 
|
Oh, yeah! NOW it looks like it's a workin' machine!! Fine job. I also see that Mr. Greene has his computer back up and runnin'. Good to see it's all apparently "fixed". James |
|||||||||
|
Trebor Moderator
|
Now if he'll just fix his layout, I'll run this thing over there. |
|||||||||
|
W C Greene Member
|
Bob-I hope you realize that "theoretically" we could be running in a matter of minutes, to fully set up the layout, I still need about 6 more cheap tripods and that will have to come around the first of the month. We could however, set up the enginehouse/turntable, passing siding-monorail connection-car knockers' shop, and maybe the beginning of the climb to Tres Diablos Canyon and the Chupacabra mine...and just maybe the canyon & Out-Law mine itself. We would have to clean track, fix some shorts, repair some feeder wires...no wait-NOT! Give me a holler, we can make it happen anytime. Woodie |
|||||||||
|
Trebor Moderator
|
I ran this thing all day yesterday and I don't have ANY track. |
|||||||||
|
DW Member
|
Trebor wrote: I ran this thing all day yesterday and I don't have ANY track. The beauty of RC. |
|||||||||
|
W C Greene Member
|
As the guy in the movie said-"wiring? We don't need no stinkin' wiring!" I know Bob's critters run great without track, but you should try a loco & tender on the floor-looks like a drunk snake running along. Boudreaux |
|||||||||
|
Trebor Moderator
|
GOOD NEWS ! I stopped by a Radio Shack the other day and the RC cars that I used are available again. $14.00 on sale for $7.00.  |
|||||||||
|
W C Greene Member
|
Bob-good deal on the car. NIKKO is outta business now, the Dallas Hobby Town bought the remaining inventory, I haven't seen these cars however. I will check it out when I go back to work next week. I am still looking for the ECO-MAN r/c tiny tanks. These make wonderful critters and Cletrack models. The tanks run very fast with the stock battery config., but when you wire the batteries in parallel, the tanks run nice & slow and charge time is greatly increased. Also, they become a lot easier to control. Woodie |
|||||||||
|
sweetcorvette Member 
|
Ok guys and gals, have to be politically correct...what is the advantage of the RC versus the cab control...right now I am not using anything except the older style blocking but want to convert soon...I can do 5 loco's for around 250.00 complete and that is not really shopping around...and they fit in my loco's..seems that using Rc is the same but maybe less cost but seems to be more work...I really do not know so I am asking...what is the advantage and it would seem that batteries are a possible problem and expense, plus changing them all the time or recharging garretLast edited on Mon Dec 15th, 2008 09:49 pm by sweetcorvette |
|||||||||
|
W C Greene Member
|
Garret-what are the advantages to using radio control? How about never cleaning track & wheels, no track wiring, no blocks or rotary switches, no track wiring, very simple installation, no track wiring, no hassles with shorts or open circuits, more advantages than I can remember...and NO TRACK WIRING. So far, no model train manufacturer(except CVP Products and some Aussie companies) wants to invest in r/c, they have too much in dcc and don't want anything new. That $250 you mentioned would go a long way to "fix" maybe 5 or 6 locomotives. You could take your locos to anybody's layout, anywhere and be able to operate without any problems. And if that isn't enough, consider that kids these days are used to simple...put batteries in the thing and grab the joystick and start to play. If I was a kid today, there is no way I would read through volumes of printed matter to learn how to wire a model train layout, program the cv's, clean track, troubleshoot problems...I would get into r/c cars or airplanes..something that I could mess with now, not after I "learn the basics". Kids still love trains but when most find out what is involved, they do something else. Us model railroaders are playing with dinosaurs-some of us are playing with high tech dinosaurs. And one last reason to put r/c in trains-NO TRACK WIRING! Check out what Trebor, Brian and others have done...you can do r/c for less than the cost of an Athearn HO freight car kit. The cost is reason in itself to try radio control. I have said this before, once you run with radio, you will not go back to the old ways. If you have any questions, please ask and be sure to read the posts in what is the most watched thread anywhere. Whatever you decide to do, just have fun doing it. Woodie |
|||||||||
|
Trebor Moderator
|
Garret, I was trying to get to you before Woodie but he beat me to the punch. Here is my answer: Garret, Good questions. DC, DCC or RC are all good if they allow you to operate in an acceptable manner. By acceptable I mean acceptable to you. It’s your railroad after all. I won’t go into the pros and cons of each but I will tell you why I like RC. I like small 0-4-0 critters running on switching layouts with lots of turnouts. The two just don’t go together very well. Those little critters stall so much it takes all the fun out of it. RC solved that problem for me. I also went to a larger scale to make things easier on these old eyes. And… I like to tinker and solve problems. It took me quite awhile to get to where I am now with RC but most importantly, I’m having FUN FUN FUN. |
|||||||||
|
bartdonker Member 
|
Hi all! After a long -looooong- time, it was time for me to follow up on the ideas shown here on Freerails. With a small difference: it was no RC-car and it was priced at 8 Euro (is about $ 10). On Saturday, my wife brought me a "Battle Wheels" robot home.  This is what the thing looked like, and since I'm not into fighting  and stuff... ... I took it apart.  Getting the receiver out was easy, but the battary-compartiment is (was) on the downside of the frame, seen on the 2th picture. Much to big to use, so after about an hour of tearing an ripping, this is what was left of the robot. One could say, he lost his last battle  Ready for experimenting with...  ... the Regner motorunit (from the Diema, haven't made any progress with it...). It worked pretty well, as can be seen in this You-Tube video: http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=o5TlRe0Zqto . It was fun , but I still think the Crest-system would be my first choice. Problem is getting it, since I live in Europe...Best regards, Bart |
|||||||||
|
Trebor Moderator
|
NOW THATS WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT. Great job. |
|||||||||
|
DW Member
|
What Woodie said above. |
|||||||||
|
sweetcorvette Member
|
Thanks for all the imput on the r/c control, you are starting to wet my interest... so a few more questions... I see that you all use a r/c toy or car and then save the circuit board and battery pack... some how you then wire this up to the loco for the power and on, off and reversing.. so can you do this say for a atheran gp35... will the batteries power it and I would think you need to put the batteries in another car and wire them together somehow...correct as there would be no room in the shell...am I on the right "track" still...then I quess that engine power and lenght of running depends on the batteries... with some way to rechange them...most of the ones that I have sen are small loco's, I have not seen a gp or pa done this way..can they, would think that you would need a port some where on the loco for a recharging pin... and a coupler type looking pin connection at the back for hookup with the power unit..right or wrong...thanks for additional imput.. a greedy mind needs fed...garret |
|||||||||
|
Trebor Moderator
|
I’m assuming you’re talking about HO. If so, you probably can’t fit the batteries inside and a training car would be necessary. You would also want more proportional control so you’d need to use a RC car that has proportional control not just on – off at full power. Or… the HO train engineer system would work. I use that with a 9-volt battery and it works just fine. An HO box car could easily hold the batteries and the board. |
|||||||||
|
W C Greene Member
|
Well, I do have experience with r/c'ing an Athearn GP HO diesel & here is some info. It makes a difference whether the loco is old (open frame motor) or new (can style motor). Also, is the mechanism well broken-in. To do what we have done for Mopman's switcher lashup, there is a powered GP and a dummy GP which has the batteries & receiver. You will not be able to control the Athearn with a single speed r/c board, trust me. We are using a LOSI MICRO-T car board and 11.1 volt rechargable lithium-polymer battery. You will need this much power to do the job properly. In money terms, the Losi board is 30 bucks, a Futaba Ouattro 2 channel transmitter is 50 bucks and the battery is near 50 bucks-you will need the proper charger for the battery...maybe as cheap as 40 on up. The battery & receiver is inside the dummy unit and there is a Dean's plug connector and motor wires between the dummy & powered loco I know this sounds expensive and it is until you consider that the transmitter will only have to be bought once it will serve for all your locos, and the battery charger is a one time expense also. You can go ahead and install a cheapie r/c board but you will find out that the motor/traction will fry the board quickly, and if there is not enough battery power, the loco will barely run and if it does, then only for a minute or so. We have run this GP lashup during a local show for several hours pulling 12-14 modern 60-80 foot cars so we know what it can do. I will take some pix of all this and send it along as soon as I can. Mopman is a dyed in the wool HO Missouri Pacific 1970 vintage Athearn DC diesel operator and this foray into r/c has convinced him that this is the way to go. Maybe he will see this post and answer personally. Good luck, be sure to keep us posted. Woodie LATE NEWS-here is a photo of Mopman's GP with the board & battery installed. Not shown is the plug to power the motor in the lead unit. I also noticed that I have a KYOSHO board installed instead of the LOSI board. Both will do the same job, the LOSI is far less expensive and a lot easier to find right now.  Also note that the unused gear tower on the rear truck had to be removed to clear the battery. I just took of the top of the tower and screwed the truck bolster to the frame. The wires to the powered unit are shown trailing off the screen at the bottom. A DEAN'S or MINIATRONICS plug is installed to be able to disconnect the lead loco from the battery "car"...or GP. See how this all fits quite well and is pretty easy to figure out. Have fun & run a train Last edited on Fri Dec 19th, 2008 12:34 am by W C Greene |
|||||||||
|
mopman Member 
|
Well I guess I will have to put in my 2 cents. I figured Woodie would mention our project when I saw the mention of a GP35. I too run analog block control on the Van Buren Sub. At this time I have no use for DCC for two reasons. Foremost is cost! Just to retrofit my layout would cost between $750 - $1000 and thats just using the least expensive decoders I can find. Forget sound (an extra $500 or more). With that kind of money at my disposal, I could finish my railroad including additional engines, rolling stock and structures that are needed and still have change to take the wife out for a good steak dinner. The second reason is the learning curve. If you don't believe me take a look at the manual that comes with a DCC system (ususally 80 plus pages). Now on the Van Buren Sub I utilize hidden staging for the road freights that operate through Van Buren and it is difficult to reach in and turn the engine on or off so conventional DC will still be used for that application. However R/C will be used on the local turns and yard switchers since they will never see staging. The initial tests last year were enough to convince me that R/C has a place in my operating scheme. This year we are using a much smoother running engine (Athearn GP35 widebody) with a GP7 (Athearn widebody) dummy. My hope is to have it fully operational and tested for the layout tour during the Plano show in January. I hope this will give you a little food for thought on how R/C might fit into your operational scheme. Jim |
|||||||||
|
Dave D Administrator 
|
Okay guys, now I want to chime in here. I love what you are all doing with the RC. It is all very cool. I would like to say something in defense of DCC. I have seen numerous times the statements, about how thick the DCC booklet is. Well....it HAS to be because of all of the things it can do....it is amazing, and can be a little daunting looking in from the outside. For the basic start up and running of the trains, you only need to read up on a mere fraction of the information, and many will never use all that it offers. If sound is not your thing, DCC still makes the wiring and running of the layout much easier than straight DC, and the basic non sound DCC decoder is very inexpensive. If sound IS your thing, well there is usually more than one way to skin a cat....( No offense Peach head ) I believe it was Sam Barbarose <---sp? who showed many how to install a sound chip into a single steam loco tender than can be run with all steam locos. This way you would have the traveling sound with your train and only have to convert the locos themselves to DCC using the inexpensive DCC chip. I am sure this could be done with a box car or tank car as well for the diesel era layout. It may not be the perfect solution but it is a way around having sound and not having to install the more expensive decoders into every loco you own. Granted, if you have an existing layout, the conversion to DCC could be a sizable cash investment and may be prohibitive. I only wanted to put this in here because I don't want folks to think this forum is opposed to DCC by bashing it all the time. Nor do I want this to look like I am dropping the hammer on you guys, I love reading about everything you are promoting in the RC area...as I said at the start of this post....very cool! Heck.....if they or you ever come up with a battery system that would have enough power to run my sound equipt locos for a decent length of time...I would be right there with you!! I wish you could in fact....how cool would it be to set up a non wired outdoor On30 layout?? ( I know you have Woodrow...but not using sound. ) I have seen localy where someone has tried it with G scale.....but they set it up with D cell patteries and they had to use 8 of them in a boxcar to power it...maybe more I forget...but I do remember thinking that it was to the point that most of the power was going to be sucked up pulling the weight of that boxcar full of D cells. Maybe I just need to get over it in regards to on board sound, but I just think it is cooler than anything at this time. Anyway....now back to our scheduled programming. |
|||||||||
|
W C Greene Member
|
Dave-your points are all well taken. It is possible to have sound with the r/c, I am one of those guys who prefer "silent running". True, sound components use more power than the motor, but if that's your thing, a little experimenting could yield positive results. I still believe that r/c is the future of model railroading and if the hobby doesn't embrace this, the kids of today will not be interested in trains-look at the growth of r/c cars and airplanes. I personally know ONE teen who is into trains and he has an r/c loco, and I know MANY teens who race cars and fly planes and copters. The simplicity of use is what it's all about. Old cats like us don't seem to mind messing with balky locomotives, cleaning track, tracking down shorts and open circuits, wiring blocks, and recently learning computer terms to be able to run our "sophisticated" electronic marvels that walk & talk. Kids want to put batteries in, turn it on, and PLAY...not sit and read about programming cv's, etc. Just imagine how neat it would be to build a layout with reverse loops, turntables, passing sidings, crossovers, and other kinds of complicated trackwork and no wires or insulated rail joiners or switches to control the power flow. I don't have to imagine those things, I have all of them now. Bob knows, Sullivan knows, DW knows, Brian knows, Bart knows...and even old Mopman with his large HO dc powered layout knows. Everybody can do as they like, there is room for all-the future will (hopefully) take care of itself. I don't want to be seen as knocking DCC, it is fine for what it is. I have been the "whipping boy" by some DCC advocates who feel that I should leave well enough alone. As one well known modeler said to me several years ago after watching an r/c loco run across his display case-"that's unnatural". So I guess it's back to the basement to stir the caldrons of bubbling nastiness. I just love to mess with "traditions". "Now you know the rest of the story"...Paul Harvey Peach Head's best friend |
|||||||||
|
Dave D Administrator
|
I have been the "whipping boy" by some DCC advocates who feel that I should leave well enough alone. Well that won't happen here buddy!! I just want to put that out there for those who love DCC..so they know that all view points are welcome.  |
|||||||||
|
DW Member
|
Woodie, as usual, makes the argument well for RC. Discussions with him were instrumental in my opting to go with RC. The younger generation is less inclined to want to involve themselves in this hobby if they are more or less led to use an antiquated control system. RC is the future for model railroading as evidence by the immense growth in the RC genre. As it stands the hobby often requires an extensive amount of space and time just to play whereas the kid playing with a RC car doesn't have to do anything more than plug and play instantly. Currently the main obstacle we face in this genre is the size of the components and being able to fit them into our locos. Even in my larger 7/8ths scale it is taking some plannig in figuring how to install the batteries and ESC/receiver into the critter I'm building. |
|||||||||
|
Dave D Administrator
|
Woodie I want to toss one more thing out there for you. You wrote: look at the growth of r/c cars and airplanes. I personally know ONE teen who is into trains and he has an r/c loco, and I know MANY teens who race cars and fly planes and copters. The simplicity of use is what it's all about. Just playing Devils advocate here.....Could it be that the teens of today are into the RC cars, planes and copters not because they are simple to use...try flying an RC copter.... but rather, because they are cooler than trains in the eyes of a teen? The cars are so freakin fast it is unbelievable. The plains have electric motors now that have super high rpms so they can power planes and cars with batteries thus without the need for gasoline type fuel and glow plugs. I'm not trying to be an A-hole, I just don't bye the argument that teens wont get into the hobby just because the trains don't run on RC. I think teens wont get into the hobby because the options available to them as far as unique and exciting pastimes has evolved and outgrown the relatively pastoral hobby of model trains. You were a teen once remember...it was all about the rush and excitement....it still is for them...and they have a LOT more outlets for that now than they did in the 1950's. It is a different era...kids don't run down to the Macy's department store to press their red noses on the glass to see the new Lionel setup anymore. They press them against the computer screen checking out the newest offering from EA sports or the newest action shooter for the X-box set up where they can roll play as a thug killing cops pimps and Hos ( It's a sad world. ) ...that's what will be the death of the hobby for teens. I think it will survive...as they grow older many will want to be able to use the craftsman like talents they have honed over the years to build something unique. Maybe that will be models and model trains. In this day and age I just think the hobby will only grab that unique teen who is enchanted by all this. I don't want to start a raging debate.....I know for a fact you have dealt with a lot of it in the past in other places...I just wanted to express my views, and this is really how I see it. Could I be wrong? Gosh I HOPE so!! Besides...I think Pre- teens is where the interest is really rooted. Carry on!  |
|||||||||
|
ebtm3 Moderator
|
To paraphrase a common saying-"The boss may not always be the boss, but in this case I think he's right" Herbie Last edited on Sat Dec 20th, 2008 08:38 pm by ebtm3 |
|||||||||
|
W C Greene Member
|
Dave-that's why I am here-I don't get any guff from the "unwashed"..!! I know that poor old model railroading is considered dull and old mannish, but with the "proper" advances and promotion, it could interest kids again. Who knows, railroading is on the "comeback" in the US, hopefully kids will see what we see. Imagine that some company like Bachmann comes out with an r/c GP50 train set with a couple of r/c 18 wheelers that could be used in TOFC service and the set includes ramps, etc. to assist in loading the trailers. Heck, I believe kids would love that and old guys also. The HO r/c truck and autos are already a reality, combined with a train it would be hard to resist. How bout' them apples? Woodie |
|||||||||
|
Paladin Administrator
|
From where I sit Radio Control has a lot to offer, but it is not for everyone. Folks can buy a train set that just clips together, plug it into a power point and it just goes. Could not be easier. To the best of my knowledge this is not yet available with R/C. Sure there are several R/C systems out there that are almost plug and play, but they are not cheap when you add it to the cost of the train set Johnny got for Christmas. No need to worry about installing boards or batteries, no need for a basic understanding of electronics. The issues arise when they want something bigger and better, whether that be R/C - DC or DCC. At this point they require un-biased information, to help them come to a understanding as how each will be best for them. Be that financial or other. When it comes to programming the kids of today run rings around most of us. My layout will be DCC if for no other reason than I have it. Just as I am sure it is for people using DC. I have plans to convert a Porter to Radio Control and maybe after I have run both systems I will be able pass a opinion. What ever it is that rings your bell, stick with it. Remember it is supposed to be FUN |
|||||||||
|
W C Greene Member
|
Don-it is indeed fun. Remember that the kid will soon tire of watching a loco and cars whiz around a loop of track and wish for maybe some turnouts, a crossover, a long run, stuff that requires some thought to assemble. If that kid could just put the track together in any way he could imagine and have fun, what's wrong with that? Turnouts and crossings with plastic frogs can cause dead places in a dc or dcc layout, dirty wheels and track will do the same thing. You are right, kids can get through the technical stuff better than an old coot, but "traditional" problems can become frustrating and the kid looks for something "better"-a car or plane that has no such "turn offs". An r/c train wouldn't need exotic batteries like some of us use, they run great on a 9 volt-Trebor tells all about that in his threads. I have installed many dcc boards and waded through the books to be able to program the boards so I can speak from experience. Yes, dcc is the best thing to come along.....so far. Soooo, everybody can do as they want and it is cool with me. Now, what can I make from those old Brite Boy track cleaners? Woodie |
|||||||||
|
bcarter1234 Member
|
Hello, I've been watching these threads with interest. As my first micro layout is nearly ready for trains I thought I'd post a question. I fear I already know the answer but has anyone found a system that will fit into smaller HOn30 locos? I would love to run this layout with RC. The layout will have a small tank loco and a critter. The locos and cars have to be fairly short for it to work so I'd rather avoid a tender if possible. Thanks in advance for any help. Take care, Brent |
|||||||||
|
W C Greene Member
|
Brent-you guessed right on the r/c stuff not fitting into HOn30 critters. It just might be possible to fit a single speed board and a 3 volt lithium camera battery into something like a Grandt Line HOn30 boxcab loco, there just might be room. I know that these little lokies run nice & slow on 3 volts so a speed control might not even be needed. A tiny steam loco might be powered with a tender or trailer car which would have to be big enough for the board & battery. Check out the radio control thread, there are photos & info on various boards and batteries that we are using and know will work. I do have a friend who installed r/c into an N scale PA and B unit, the board being in the dummy B and the battery in the head end baggage car, all wired together. It ran great but he used the board for an On30 loco later on. Good luck, send some photos. Woodie |
|||||||||
|
bcarter1234 Member
|
Woodie, Thanks for the reply. Could you tell me what the smallest single speed board you've seen is? I'm willing to go without speed control for what I'll be doing on this tiny switching layout but of course reverse will be critical since I can't go in circles. Take care, Brent |
|||||||||
|
Trebor Moderator
|
Brent, Here's one that I'm working on. It about 3/4-inch square. This is from one of those 1:52 hot rods from MicroGear. A quick test looks like it will work.  |
|||||||||
|
W C Greene Member
|
Bob has the right board. Look for tiny r/c cars at the discount stores, dollar stores, etc. Most cost $5 to $10 and any will do the job. These little cars come in 27 and 49 MHZ frequencies so you and a friend can race without interference and therefore you could have 2 locos in operation at once. The little transmitters that come with these cars will do the job-you have a single speed and forward & reverse. I have run these little boards with as much as 7.4 volts from a Li-Poly rechargable (one powers my Model T railcar) so I know they can handle more than 1.5 to 3 volts. The Model T can be run for about 2 hours between charges. If I had used a different motor and gears, I would be able to use less voltage but I installed a Grandt Line 80:1 gearhead motor in the T and 3 volts makes the scale speed about 2MPH. With more voltage, she runs at a nice 5MPH. The Grandt HOn30 boxcab I mentioned would run nicely on 3 volts. I don't know if you can buy an HOn30 kit but the HOn3 kit is very easily modified and since it would be r/c, you wouldn't need to mess with the fiddly power pickup wires. The tiny boards would fit into an HOn30 steam loco cab, you might be able to use a small camera battery in the bunker or make the bunker around the battery. Anything is possible-building a small model would require "creative stuffing" to get everything in the loco. If you want to see how small it can go, check out the German HO scale r/c autos on Youtube. Just amazing stuff. Woodie |
|||||||||
|
sweetcorvette Member
|
Well I have read this from front to back now, and it is very interesting but for now will stay with command control on the larger one, but will say that like some others willing to try a small loco or two on the narrow guage that I am planning to run and then make a compare as to which seems to work the best for me...can see advantages and disavantages in all...garret |
|||||||||
|
bcarter1234 Member
|
Woodie said: "Bob has the right board. Look for tiny r/c cars at the discount stores, dollar stores, etc. Most cost $5 to $10 and any will do the job." Have you guys been able to find these tiny RC cars in stores lately? I think the ones you mean are the little 1:64 scale cars. They frequently came in a bubble with a round transmitter. A few years ago you couldn't sling a dead cat without hitting one of these now I can't seem to locate them. I can buy them online but I thought I'd pick one up locally to mess with over the holidays. Take care, Brent |
|||||||||
|
W C Greene Member
|
Brent-I don't know about other places, but the Dallas Hobby Town USA does have the little cars for $9.99. This is a blatant commercial interruption without any pay for the mention. The store will send them to your door, the postage just might cost as much as the car however! Each little car is inside a "bubble" with the transmitter/charger base on the bottom of the package. There are 2 frequencies-27 and 49 MHZ and the little transmitter will only run it's dedicated car. These little cars get charged from the transmitter's batteries so if you use another battery type, you might want to install a tiny on/off switch on one of the new battery's leads. Call the store if interested, phone number is 214-987-4744. The same store also carries the LOSI r/c car boards, r/c equipment, and model train stuff also. Woodie |
|||||||||
|
Trebor Moderator
|
That's the same kind as the picture above. I see them everywhere. They're about $10.00. |
|||||||||
|
bcarter1234 Member
|
Woodie, As per your request here is the current state of the layout, my first micro layout, actually my first layout ever. I've got tons to do before it's anything like finished but I'm enjoying thr journey. You can see the little critter, I think I may scratchbuild something to fit the recommended RC gear into. I have two of the Kato N scale power units a four wheel and an 8 wheel. I"m excited about the prospect of RC trains, I hate bumping the little thing every other time I go through a switch. Take care, Brent  |
|||||||||
|
Trebor Moderator
|
Brent, that's a very nice first effort. |
|||||||||
|
jcburn Member 
|
Being an RC guy (planes, cars,helis) I wonder why the guys that have existing DC wiring in place are not using the current running through the rails to supply voltage to the esc. This would alleviate the battery problems (special chargers for Lipos, balancers, finding room etc). When I first saw the thread header, that's the first thing that came to mind. I'll admit track and wheel cleaning will still be required, but complicated wiring shouldn't. Additionally, if you're using Lithium Polymer batteries they require a special charger, and if they are more than 2 cells will require balancing during/after charging for best life. Most RC esc's can handle the voltage/amperage required for pulling long consists, and can be purchased with higher ampreage abilities if required. Several are even programmable through your computer. I have programmed my throttle curve away from a linear response to a tapered curve to allow more precise speed control at lower speeds. Another thing to be aware of is that you will need to utilize transmitters/receiver pairs on different frequencies if you plan on running more than one locomotive at a time, regardless of which way you go for power supply. If you buy several of those little cars at once, try to get them on different channels, and FM instead of AM if possible. If you have 3 critters all on channel 3, you'll only be able to operate them one at a time, and the other 2 will have to be "off" while the first is being operated. I'm currently starting an On30 layout and will be experimenting with my RC systems to determine which direction I intend to go. Not really interested in DCC, but would like sound of some sort. Great jobs on the experimentation, this is what pushes the hobby ahead, keep it up!! jim |
|||||||||
|
ebtm3 Moderator
|
Jim- My sole reason for getting into RC with the railroad is to get away from the electrical contact problem. I am in a position where this should be less (or no) problem than most model railroaders. My layout is in an insulated over the road trailer, with electric heat. I model in O scale, with the weight advantage that that gives regarding wheel contact. All rails are grounded, as I have overhead wire with pantographs- sliding contact. In spite of all this, sidings and track that does not see constant operation gives trouble. With an onboard battery, this is eliminated, and I am willing to pay for, and use electronics for this reason. Normally, I avoid things that I can't fix, or troubleshoot, like the plague. A railroad separated into electrical blocks isn't that much work, or expense vs radio and battery, or for that matter DCC. I'm not criticizing your ideal system, not everyone likes chocolate, and -hey it's your railroad- just trying to explain why a few of us do what we do. Some day, in the not to distant future, there will cheap supercaps. At that point what you propose will become a lot more attractive to me- the momentary loss of power won't be noticed, and as long as contact is maintained most of the time, operation will be as smooth as on board battery Herb |
|||||||||
|
W C Greene Member
|
Jim-welcome to freerails. You might look at the original r/c thread which has thousands of views already. There's more to what we are doing than looking for 5 dollar r/c boards and cheap stuff. Trebor has some cool tiny r/c critters that just use simple single speed receivers and with low battery power, they run nice & slow, not really needing proportional speed control. Herb & I use li-poly batteries for the power they provide. Herbie is pulling heavy O scale freight cars & I am towing heavy ore trains up 10% grades. My li-poly batteries have been in use for several years already and I haven't had any problems (so far). There are quite a few r/c boards out ther that are suitable for trains, everybody has their favorites. We have been using r/c car boards since they handle the current and have reverse function. As for sound, with a little fiddling, a Tsunami sound board can be hooked up and working. I did it in a Shay but took it out afterward since I don't care for sound effects. I just did it to prove it could be done. Since you are very familiar with radio control, look at what has been written and let us know if you see something incorrect or perhaps dangerous! I know r/c is the way to go, I now use my dc power supply as a boat anchor. Woodie |
|||||||||
|
ebtm3 Moderator
|
Jim- A question that you may be able to answer, with your RC experience. Is there a quick and dirty way to convert the receiver output meant to drive a servo into an on-off signal? Virtually no amperage involved, just to drive a micro relay coil. Space is the main consideration. Herb |
|||||||||
|
jcburn Member
|
Herb, I belive some of the airplane and heli guys have lights on their aircraft that they turn off and on with the radio. I have seen lighting systems advertized in the Trade magazines but have not talked with anyone who actually used them. I know RAM Lighting supplies systems for RC, but I don't know what they have. I imagine a basic stamp or pic chip could be programmed to take input from the receiver and do whatever you wanted it to do. As for poor contact with the rails, my experience has been, I guess, exceptionally lucky. I belonged to an HO group in Texas that had a 65'X45' layout with about 95% handlaid track and as long as we ran cleaning cars disguised as rolling stock every operating session we experienced very very little problems with that. My own N scale South Cheat Rwy, point to point system was the same. I had more trouble with my steep grades than problems with poor contact, but I cleaned it every time I used it. As for my "ideal system" I was just asking why no-one was taking power from the track, now I know why. I haven't had time to read the other threads yet, job seems to get in the way, but I will open up my wife's broken Micro-T and steal the guts to begin catching up with you guys. I prefer a pistol grip transmitter over a stick unit for something like this, I have a 3 channel 2.4ghz unit with 10 model memories that would allow me to put all my motive power in one transmitter, and allow setting different parameters for each. Thanks for the inspiration, I can't wait to try this. jim |
|||||||||
|
sweetcorvette Member
|
Ok there people, help me out as for RC I am a real novice, I read jc's comments on using track power as is and just having the loco's be RC which seems to me to be a type of command control, but interesting to me as I can not see all the work that is needed to run batteries, cost and the constant charging, my two cents on that subject... so explain there jc or some one how I might do something like this and just use a controler to regulate speed and direction... now remember you are talking to a novice at this, good at modeling and the old blocking, but have no experience for Rc other than an occassional buy at radio shack for a car or two in my lifetime...garret |
|||||||||
|
W C Greene Member
|
I suppose that using track power to run an "r/c train" is ok, why mess with that, why not go dcc? That's the same thing. When you leap to onboard batteries, there's the big difference. As for constant charging...how much do you run your trains? If you want to sit and watch the train go round and round while you sip a beer..then you don't need or want r/c with onboard batteries. But if you like to operate that train-run a peddler freight, etc. and pick up & set out cars, switch industries, you know-really run the train-then onboard batteries are the thing (at least I think so). I am talking about the difference between wiring a train layout, keeping in mind that even with a r/c receiver or dcc, shorts are possible. Open circuits are possible. Dirty track & wheels are constant problems. Using onboard batteries to run the train means no track wiring. None of that other stuff. Constant charging of batteries? One On30 friend uses regular old 9 volt batteries and can get through 2 days of train show operation before he needs to replace the battery. I get at least 8 hours of operation before I need to charge batteries. By that time, most engineers would want to use the "down time" to re lube and check the loco. I know this all sounds complicated, charging batteries and such...but modelers doing airplanes, cars, boats, tanks, robotics...all have to charge batteries and don't have a problem with doing so. Model railroaders are mostly traditionalists who are familiar with cleaning track, looking for electrical problems, and all the other foibles of track power. To some, change is not good-why mess with something that works fine now? It took dcc many years to be accepted by the majority, hopefully r/c will break the "wire celing" in the future. Whatever you do, try to do your best and have fun doing it. Woodie |
|||||||||
|
sweetcorvette Member
|
Ok..see your point on some of the items with the use of batteries and r/c, guess you are right everyone to their own choice... all seem to have good points and possible bad ones... at least I am learning a lot about alternatives so that is a good point...like the forum here for that reason, have been on others and this is best one that I have found for education, help and just plain good time...my  hat off to you all....garretps... would be nice if there was a primer of some type on the r/c use with what, how, parts and how to do a simple installation... maybe there is somewhere and I have not found it..or maybe there is an internet site that is in the range of "MODEL TRAINS AND R/C FOR DUMMIES " book enabled...for simple minded "one track" ( have not found the throwout yet) minds like me...:Hmm: Last edited on Wed Jan 7th, 2009 07:45 pm by sweetcorvette |
|||||||||
|
W C Greene Member
|
All you need to do is go to the r/c section here at freerails and you will find more than you will ever need to know about the subject. Trebor has a fine tutorial showing just what to do and there is enough technical info and links to tech info that the mind boggles (at least mine does) There is not(as far as I know) a "mainstream" publication that caters to or even admits that there is such a thing as radio control so you might have to check out what has been written here. There are many great minds on this site and any, ANY question you may have will be answered by someone here. I have suggested in the past (and still do) that you make friends with some r/c flyers or car racers. Not just the guy who flys a foam plane on the nice Sunday, but guys who eat, sleep, and breathe r/c. This is how I learned and it is still the best advice I can give on the subject. Good luck, Mr Phelps. This tape will self destruct in 5 seconds................ Woodie |
|||||||||