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W C Greene
Member
| Joined: | Fri May 4th, 2007 |
| Location: | Dallas, Texas USA |
| Posts: | 1972 |
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Posted: Thu Dec 18th, 2008 02:56 am |
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Well, I do have experience with r/c'ing an Athearn GP HO diesel & here is some info. It makes a difference whether the loco is old (open frame motor) or new (can style motor). Also, is the mechanism well broken-in. To do what we have done for Mopman's switcher lashup, there is a powered GP and a dummy GP which has the batteries & receiver. You will not be able to control the Athearn with a single speed r/c board, trust me. We are using a LOSI MICRO-T car board and 11.1 volt rechargable lithium-polymer battery. You will need this much power to do the job properly. In money terms, the Losi board is 30 bucks, a Futaba Ouattro 2 channel transmitter is 50 bucks and the battery is near 50 bucks-you will need the proper charger for the battery...maybe as cheap as 40 on up. The battery & receiver is inside the dummy unit and there is a Dean's plug connector and motor wires between the dummy & powered loco I know this sounds expensive and it is until you consider that the transmitter will only have to be bought once it will serve for all your locos, and the battery charger is a one time expense also. You can go ahead and install a cheapie r/c board but you will find out that the motor/traction will fry the board quickly, and if there is not enough battery power, the loco will barely run and if it does, then only for a minute or so. We have run this GP lashup during a local show for several hours pulling 12-14 modern 60-80 foot cars so we know what it can do. I will take some pix of all this and send it along as soon as I can. Mopman is a dyed in the wool HO Missouri Pacific 1970 vintage Athearn DC diesel operator and this foray into r/c has convinced him that this is the way to go. Maybe he will see this post and answer personally. Good luck, be sure to keep us posted.
Woodie
LATE NEWS-here is a photo of Mopman's GP with the board & battery installed. Not shown is the plug to power the motor in the lead unit. I also noticed that I have a KYOSHO board installed instead of the LOSI board. Both will do the same job, the LOSI is far less expensive and a lot easier to find right now.
Also note that the unused gear tower on the rear truck had to be removed to clear the battery. I just took of the top of the tower and screwed the truck bolster to the frame. The wires to the powered unit are shown trailing off the screen at the bottom. A DEAN'S or MINIATRONICS plug is installed to be able to disconnect the lead loco from the battery "car"...or GP. See how this all fits quite well and is pretty easy to figure out.
Have fun & run a train
Last edited on Fri Dec 19th, 2008 12:34 am by W C Greene
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mopman
Member
| Joined: | Wed Aug 15th, 2007 |
| Location: | Dallas, Texas USA |
| Posts: | 105 |
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Posted: Thu Dec 18th, 2008 02:59 pm |
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Well I guess I will have to put in my 2 cents. I figured Woodie would mention our project when I saw the mention of a GP35. I too run analog block control on the Van Buren Sub. At this time I have no use for DCC for two reasons. Foremost is cost! Just to retrofit my layout would cost between $750 - $1000 and thats just using the least expensive decoders I can find. Forget sound (an extra $500 or more). With that kind of money at my disposal, I could finish my railroad including additional engines, rolling stock and structures that are needed and still have change to take the wife out for a good steak dinner. The second reason is the learning curve. If you don't believe me take a look at the manual that comes with a DCC system (ususally 80 plus pages).
Now on the Van Buren Sub I utilize hidden staging for the road freights that operate through Van Buren and it is difficult to reach in and turn the engine on or off so conventional DC will still be used for that application. However R/C will be used on the local turns and yard switchers since they will never see staging. The initial tests last year were enough to convince me that R/C has a place in my operating scheme. This year we are using a much smoother running engine (Athearn GP35 widebody) with a GP7 (Athearn widebody) dummy. My hope is to have it fully operational and tested for the layout tour during the Plano show in January.
I hope this will give you a little food for thought on how R/C might fit into your operational scheme.
Jim
____________________
If it's trains....it's all good
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Dave D
Administrator
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Posted: Fri Dec 19th, 2008 12:31 pm |
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Okay guys, now I want to chime in here.
I love what you are all doing with the RC.
It is all very cool.
I would like to say something in defense of DCC.
I have seen numerous times the statements, about how thick the DCC booklet is.
Well....it HAS to be because of all of the things it can do....it is amazing, and can be a little daunting looking in from the outside.
For the basic start up and running of the trains, you only need to read up on a mere fraction of the information, and many will never use all that it offers.
If sound is not your thing, DCC still makes the wiring and running of
the layout much easier than straight DC, and the basic non sound DCC decoder is very inexpensive.
If sound IS your thing, well there is usually more than one way to skin a cat....( No offense Peach head )
I believe it was Sam Barbarose <---sp? who showed many how to install a sound chip into a single steam loco tender than can be run with all steam locos.
This way you would have the traveling sound with your train and only have to convert the locos themselves to DCC using the inexpensive DCC chip.
I am sure this could be done with a box car or tank car as well for the diesel era layout.
It may not be the perfect solution but it is a way around having sound and not having to install the more expensive decoders into every loco you own.
Granted, if you have an existing layout, the conversion to DCC could be a sizable cash investment and may be prohibitive.
I only wanted to put this in here because I don't want folks to think this forum is opposed to DCC by bashing it all the time.
Nor do I want this to look like I am dropping the hammer on you guys, I love reading about everything you are promoting in the RC area...as I said at the start of this post....very cool!
Heck.....if they or you ever come up with a battery system that would have enough power to run my sound equipt locos for a decent length of time...I would be right there with you!!
I wish you could in fact....how cool would it be to set up a non wired outdoor On30 layout?? ( I know you have Woodrow...but not using sound. )
I have seen localy where someone has tried it with G scale.....but they set it up with D cell patteries and they had to use 8 of them in a boxcar to power it...maybe more I forget...but I do remember thinking that it was to the point that most of the power was going to be sucked up pulling the weight of that boxcar full of D cells.
Maybe I just need to get over it in regards to on board sound, but I just think it is cooler than anything at this time.
Anyway....now back to our scheduled programming. 
____________________
The early bird may get the worm, but the second mouse..... gets the cheese in the trap.
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W C Greene
Member
| Joined: | Fri May 4th, 2007 |
| Location: | Dallas, Texas USA |
| Posts: | 1972 |
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Posted: Sat Dec 20th, 2008 12:31 am |
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Dave-your points are all well taken. It is possible to have sound with the r/c, I am one of those guys who prefer "silent running". True, sound components use more power than the motor, but if that's your thing, a little experimenting could yield positive results. I still believe that r/c is the future of model railroading and if the hobby doesn't embrace this, the kids of today will not be interested in trains-look at the growth of r/c cars and airplanes. I personally know ONE teen who is into trains and he has an r/c loco, and I know MANY teens who race cars and fly planes and copters. The simplicity of use is what it's all about. Old cats like us don't seem to mind messing with balky locomotives, cleaning track, tracking down shorts and open circuits, wiring blocks, and recently learning computer terms to be able to run our "sophisticated" electronic marvels that walk & talk. Kids want to put batteries in, turn it on, and PLAY...not sit and read about programming cv's, etc. Just imagine how neat it would be to build a layout with reverse loops, turntables, passing sidings, crossovers, and other kinds of complicated trackwork and no wires or insulated rail joiners or switches to control the power flow. I don't have to imagine those things, I have all of them now. Bob knows, Sullivan knows, DW knows, Brian knows, Bart knows...and even old Mopman with his large HO dc powered layout knows. Everybody can do as they like, there is room for all-the future will (hopefully) take care of itself. I don't want to be seen as knocking DCC, it is fine for what it is. I have been the "whipping boy" by some DCC advocates who feel that I should leave well enough alone. As one well known modeler said to me several years ago after watching an r/c loco run across his display case-"that's unnatural". So I guess it's back to the basement to stir the caldrons of bubbling nastiness. I just love to mess with "traditions".
"Now you know the rest of the story"...Paul Harvey
Peach Head's best friend
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Dave D
Administrator
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Posted: Sat Dec 20th, 2008 01:01 am |
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I have been the "whipping boy" by some DCC advocates who feel that I should leave well enough alone.
Well that won't happen here buddy!!
I just want to put that out there for those who love DCC..so they know that all view points are welcome. 
____________________
The early bird may get the worm, but the second mouse..... gets the cheese in the trap.
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DW
Member
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Posted: Sat Dec 20th, 2008 01:48 pm |
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Woodie, as usual, makes the argument well for RC. Discussions with him were instrumental in my opting to go with RC. The younger generation is less inclined to want to involve themselves in this hobby if they are more or less led to use an antiquated control system. RC is the future for model railroading as evidence by the immense growth in the RC genre. As it stands the hobby often requires an extensive amount of space and time just to play whereas the kid playing with a RC car doesn't have to do anything more than plug and play instantly.
Currently the main obstacle we face in this genre is the size of the components and being able to fit them into our locos. Even in my larger 7/8ths scale it is taking some plannig in figuring how to install the batteries and ESC/receiver into the critter I'm building.
____________________
Dwayne
Modeling in 1:17n30
Click the link below to visit the:
Keylock Lumber & Mining Co.
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Dave D
Administrator
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Posted: Sat Dec 20th, 2008 02:21 pm |
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Woodie I want to toss one more thing out there for you.
You wrote:
look at the growth of r/c cars and airplanes. I personally know ONE teen who is into trains and he has an r/c loco, and I know MANY teens who race cars and fly planes and copters. The simplicity of use is what it's all about.
Just playing Devils advocate here.....Could it be that the teens of today are into the RC cars, planes and copters not because they are simple to use...try flying an RC copter.... but rather, because they are cooler than trains in the eyes of a teen?
The cars are so freakin fast it is unbelievable.
The plains have electric motors now that have super high rpms so they can power planes and cars with batteries thus without the need for gasoline type fuel and glow plugs.
I'm not trying to be an A-hole, I just don't bye the argument that teens wont get into the hobby just because the trains don't run on RC.
I think teens wont get into the hobby because the options available to them as far as unique and exciting pastimes has evolved and outgrown the relatively pastoral hobby of model trains.
You were a teen once remember...it was all about the rush and excitement....it still is for them...and they have a LOT more outlets for that now than they did in the 1950's.
It is a different era...kids don't run down to the Macy's department store to press their red noses on the glass to see the new Lionel setup anymore.
They press them against the computer screen checking out the newest offering from EA sports or the newest action shooter for the X-box set up where they can roll play as a thug killing cops pimps and Hos ( It's a sad world. ) ...that's what will be the death of the hobby for teens.
I think it will survive...as they grow older many will want to be able to use the craftsman like talents they have honed over the years to build something unique.
Maybe that will be models and model trains.
In this day and age I just think the hobby will only grab that unique teen who is enchanted by all this.
I don't want to start a raging debate.....I know for a fact you have dealt with a lot of it in the past in other places...I just wanted to express my views, and this is really how I see it.
Could I be wrong? Gosh I HOPE so!!
Besides...I think Pre- teens is where the interest is really rooted.
Carry on! 
____________________
The early bird may get the worm, but the second mouse..... gets the cheese in the trap.
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ebtm3
Moderator
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Posted: Sat Dec 20th, 2008 08:37 pm |
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To paraphrase a common saying-"The boss may not always be the boss, but in this case I think he's right"
Herbie
Last edited on Sat Dec 20th, 2008 08:38 pm by ebtm3
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Never trust any computer that you can't throw out the window Steve Wozinak
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W C Greene
Member
| Joined: | Fri May 4th, 2007 |
| Location: | Dallas, Texas USA |
| Posts: | 1972 |
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Online
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Posted: Sun Dec 21st, 2008 12:41 am |
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Dave-that's why I am here-I don't get any guff from the "unwashed"..!! I know that poor old model railroading is considered dull and old mannish, but with the "proper" advances and promotion, it could interest kids again. Who knows, railroading is on the "comeback" in the US, hopefully kids will see what we see. Imagine that some company like Bachmann comes out with an r/c GP50 train set with a couple of r/c 18 wheelers that could be used in TOFC service and the set includes ramps, etc. to assist in loading the trailers. Heck, I believe kids would love that and old guys also. The HO r/c truck and autos are already a reality, combined with a train it would be hard to resist. How bout' them apples?
Woodie
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Paladin
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| Joined: | Tue Jan 24th, 2006 |
| Location: | Berwick, Australia |
| Posts: | 1968 |
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Posted: Sun Dec 21st, 2008 02:45 am |
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From where I sit Radio Control has a lot to offer, but it is not for everyone.
Folks can buy a train set that just clips together, plug it into a power point and it just goes. Could not be easier. To the best of my knowledge this is not yet available with R/C. Sure there are several R/C systems out there that are almost plug and play, but they are not cheap when you add it to the cost of the train set Johnny got for Christmas.
No need to worry about installing boards or batteries, no need for a basic understanding of electronics.
The issues arise when they want something bigger and better, whether that be R/C - DC or DCC. At this point they require un-biased information, to help them come to a understanding as how each will be best for them. Be that financial or other.
When it comes to programming the kids of today run rings around most of us.
My layout will be DCC if for no other reason than I have it. Just as I am sure it is for people using DC.
I have plans to convert a Porter to Radio Control and maybe after I have run both systems I will be able pass a opinion.
What ever it is that rings your bell, stick with it. Remember it is supposed to be FUN
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